7mm RM Cleaning and Breakin Options

[FatOldMIHunter]

I've had a Browning A-bolt 7mm Rem Mag for about 25 years. I bought it new and I've used it for hunting and I doubt that it has had more than 200 rounds through it. I haven't cleaned it often, but I never did a proper break in on it. Now I'm creating a range that will allow me to shoot out to 400 yds and I want to get my accuracy up for shooting at that range. I plan on trying to clean the copper fouling out and then go through a proper breakin. I'll be reloading my ammo and I'll be shooting seated with a Lead Sled on a stable platform.

For clearing the copper fouling, I'm considering shooting the barrel clean using CFE 223 or some other copper melting powder. I may go with this method just for the sake of seeing whether it will work. The other option of course is to chemically clean it with solvents and bore brushing, probably using a boresnake. What are the pros and cons of these approaches in this situation?

 

[ShootDots]

If you have had the rifle since new and have never cleaned the copper out, attempting to "fire it clean" with CFE powders will NEVER work! Besides that, you will be eating your barrel up.. You will need JB Bore Paste or Iosso Bore Paste and a GOOD cleaning rod. Most "off the shelf" rifles are hard to break in because of the "non-custom" barrels to begin with. However, 20+ years ago, even the custom barrels were tough to break in. Yours will be very difficult at best. If you do not have the proper cleaning equipment, take it to someone and let them do it. In the mean time, accumulate the necessary equipment.

 

[FatOldMIHunter]

If you have had the rifle since new and have never cleaned the copper out, attempting to "fire it clean" with CFE powders will NEVER work! Besides that, you will be eating your barrel up.. You will need JB Bore Paste or Iosso Bore Paste and a GOOD cleaning rod. Most "off the shelf" rifles are hard to break in because of the "non-custom" barrels to begin with. However, 20+ years ago, even the custom barrels were tough to break in. Yours will be very difficult at best. If you do not have the proper cleaning equipment, take it to someone and let them do it. In the mean time, accumulate the necessary equipment.

So, if I have cleaned the copper out it might work? I have cleaned the barrel several times and hopefully I didn't do more harm than good, but I think I have gotten all of the copper out at least once or twice. I'm just not absolutely sure of that and I did not specifically shoot and clean with breakin in mind. I have read a number of accounts of people cleaning copper fouling from old abused factory barrels in 100-200 rounds with CFE powders. Have you ever tried it on a similar barrel? If so, was there any improvement? Assuming you are correct, is the Tipton carbon fiber rod good enough? And assuming that I get the barrel suitably clean, would CFE powders be good for the subsequent breakin?

 

[JRS]

After 200 rounds fired through it, how much more can you break it in Load and shoot.

 

[ShootDots]

So, if I have cleaned the copper out it might work? I have cleaned the barrel several times and hopefully I didn't do more harm than good, but I think I have gotten all of the copper out at least once or twice. I'm just not absolutely sure of that and I did not specifically shoot and clean with breakin in mind. I have read a number of accounts of people cleaning copper fouling from old abused factory barrels in 100-200 rounds with CFE powders. Have you ever tried it on a similar barrel? If so, was there any improvement? Assuming you are correct, is the Tipton carbon fiber rod good enough? And assuming that I get the barrel suitably clean, would CFE powders be good for the subsequent breakin?

I use BOTH RL-16 and RL-23 both of which are "Copper Cleaning" powders. Personally, I see ZERO difference from them and the "non-cfe" powders.. The Tipton rods are excellent. Do a search on this site using the words: carbon removal, copper solvents, carbon ring, proper barrel cleaning. Once you read several posts from those words you will get a REALLY good idea of what cleaning is all about. I know it may sound like I am talking down to you, BUT T-Rust me, I am NOT! Proper cleaning of a barrel is not easy and it IS crucial.
As far as re-breaking in a used barrel, don't worry, just PROPERLY clean it after every use and you will be fine.

 

[FatOldMIHunter]

After 200 rounds fired through it, how much more can you break it in Load and shoot.

I suppose that's a legitimate question. It certainly reflects the way many have broken in their barrels for centuries. But the theory is that once you have fired one shot with a copper jacketed round, you have stifled or stopped at least some of the smoothing of the bore steel until the copper fouling has been removed. So there is a routine of shooting and cleaning that even an old surplus military rifle would benefit from if all the carbon, copper, and whatever other gunk has accumulated in the barrel has been removed. If this theory is true, I have fired maybe only 3 that have smoothed the bore steel and have many more to go.

 

[FatOldMIHunter]

I use BOTH RL-16 and RL-23 both of which are "Copper Cleaning" powders. Personally, I see ZERO difference from them and the "non-cfe" powders.. The Tipton rods are excellent. Do a search on this site using the words: carbon removal, copper solvents, carbon ring, proper barrel cleaning. Once you read several posts from those words you will get a REALLY good idea of what cleaning is all about. I know it may sound like I am talking down to you, BUT T-Rust me, I am NOT! Proper cleaning of a barrel is not easy and it IS crucial.
As far as re-breaking in a used barrel, don't worry, just PROPERLY clean it after every use and you will be fine.

I know it may seem like I am not listening to you, but trust me, I am. What you are saying is in direct contradiction to what many have written. I have no particular reason to believe they are less expert than you. I know a lot more about proper cleaning now than I did when I bought the rifle, mainly because I have read a lot about it on the Internet by people who have explained the theory behind what they are doing. But we all know that the Internet is full of armchair experts, so my question is about the pros and cons of the methods. If I may take the liberty of condensing down what you've written into the answers I've perceived, it looks like this.

Cons of using CFE 223.
It'll NEVER work because it won't strip the copper.
It'll wear your barrel out.

Those two almost seem to be in direct contradiction to each other.

Pros of using stinky harsh chemicals.
That's the way I do it.

Granted, the chemicals will work faster, but that won't satisfy my curiosity. I use Butch's Bore Shine for barrel cleaning but I'm willing to try others.

 

[JLT]

I know it may seem like I am not listening to you, but trust me, I am. What you are saying is in direct contradiction to what many have written. I have no particular reason to believe they are less expert than you. I know a lot more about proper cleaning now than I did when I bought the rifle, mainly because I have read a lot about it on the Internet by people who have explained the theory behind what they are doing. But we all know that the Internet is full of armchair experts, so my question is about the pros and cons of the methods. If I may take the liberty of condensing down what you've written into the answers I've perceived, it looks like this.

Cons of using CFE 223.
It'll NEVER work because it won't strip the copper.
It'll wear your barrel out.

Those two almost seem to be in direct contradiction to each other.

Pros of using stinky harsh chemicals.
That's the way I do it.

Granted, the chemicals will work faster, but that won't satisfy my curiosity. I use Butch's Bore Shine for barrel cleaning but I'm willing to try others.

You reference a specific powder, i.e. CFE 223, that is not well-suited for the 7mm Rem Mag - it's much too fast for the big case. If you wish to experiment, by all means do so but you would do well to select a more suitable powder. I would suggest Alliant RL-23 for the 7 RM with 140 gr. and heavier bullets.

I don't think ShootDots meant to say that CFE 223 would ruin your barrel or wear it excessively - it's just that rounds down the bore do result in wear. Frankly, I agree with him that it will not strip already deposited copper from the bore. Anti-fouling compounds are meant to prevent the fouling from accumulating in the first place, not strip it out once it's there.

I, too, have used powders with fouling inhibitors. I use CFE 223 in a variety of chamberings, in addition to RL-23 and several others. They seem to have a modest effect on copper fouling - I can tell if I go more than 100 rounds between cleanings, which is rare/almost never, but it's certainly not enough of an effect that I'll put my brushes, patches, rods and solvents away and not worry about it.

If you're worried about nasty smelling and harsh chemicals, give the Bore Tech cleaning products a try. They contain no ammonia, they're non-toxic and they have no significant odor. Bore Tech Eliminator and Cu+ are electrochemical in nature and they do a great job of removing copper fouling.

 

[seymour fish]

I know it may seem like I am not listening to you, but trust me, I am. What you are saying is in direct contradiction to what many have written. I have no particular reason to believe they are less expert than you. I know a lot more about proper cleaning now than I did when I bought the rifle, mainly because I have read a lot about it on the Internet by people who have explained the theory behind what they are doing. But we all know that the Internet is full of armchair experts, so my question is about the pros and cons of the methods. If I may take the liberty of condensing down what you've written into the answers I've perceived, it looks like this.

Cons of using CFE 223.
It'll NEVER work because it won't strip the copper.
It'll wear your barrel out.

Those two almost seem to be in direct contradiction to each other.

Pros of using stinky harsh chemicals.
That's the way I do it.

Granted, the chemicals will work faster, but that won't satisfy my curiosity. I use Butch's Bore Shine for barrel cleaning but I'm willing to try others.

Fat, Condensing down what you have written, “Joined Yesterday”. AMF

 

[FatOldMIHunter]

You reference a specific powder, i.e. CFE 223, that is not well-suited for the 7mm Rem Mag - it's much too fast for the big case. If you wish to experiment, by all means do so but you would do well to select a more suitable powder. I would suggest Alliant RL-23 for the 7 RM with 140 gr. and heavier bullets.

I don't think ShootDots meant to say that CFE 223 would ruin your barrel or wear it excessively - it's just that rounds down the bore do result in wear. Frankly, I agree with him that it will not strip already deposited copper from the bore. Anti-fouling compounds are meant to prevent the fouling from accumulating in the first place, not strip it out once it's there.

I, too, have used powders with fouling inhibitors. I use CFE 223 in a variety of chamberings, in addition to RL-23 and several others. They seem to have a modest effect on copper fouling - I can tell if I go more than 100 rounds between cleanings, which is rare/almost never, but it's certainly not enough of an effect that I'll put my brushes, patches, rods and solvents away and not worry about it.

If you're worried about nasty smelling and harsh chemicals, give the Bore Tech cleaning products a try. They contain no ammonia, they're non-toxic and they have no significant odor. Bore Tech Eliminator and Cu+ are electrochemical in nature and they do a great job of removing copper fouling.

I chose CFE 223 specifically because it was named by several of those who said that it would clean a fouled bore. I know that it's fast burning and I think that might have something to do with why it works. The Hodgdon reloading data site doesn't list a 7mm RM load for CFE 223, but it does list a 100 gr. load for an even faster burning powder (Varget) so I planned to work up a 100 gr. load based on the 7mm-08 load. I'm curious why you would recommend a slower burning powder and heavier load.

Thank you for the recommendation on the Bore Tech products. I will add them to my research list. I assume that I would still need a separate powder solvent when using them.

 

[FatOldMIHunter]

Fat, Condensing down what you have written, “Joined Yesterday”. AMF

I joined after doing a search on CFE 223 and 7mm Rem Mag and seeing the name of the forum in the results. I was hoping I would find direct experience from someone who ran this experiment on an old used 7mm RM barrel.

 

[Willie]

I know it may seem like I am not listening to you, but trust me, I am. What you are saying is in direct contradiction to what many have written. I have no particular reason to believe they are less expert than you. I know a lot more about proper cleaning now than I did when I bought the rifle, mainly because I have read a lot about it on the Internet by people who have explained the theory behind what they are doing. But we all know that the Internet is full of armchair experts, so my question is about the pros and cons of the methods. If I may take the liberty of condensing down what you've written into the answers I've perceived, it looks like this.

Cons of using CFE 223.
It'll NEVER work because it won't strip the copper.
It'll wear your barrel out.

Those two almost seem to be in direct contradiction to each other.

Pros of using stinky harsh chemicals.
That's the way I do it.

Granted, the chemicals will work faster, but that won't satisfy my curiosity. I use Butch's Bore Shine for barrel cleaning but I'm willing to try others.

You can believe it, or not, but you got excellent advice from ShootDots and JLT. You can be assured they have have a vast amount of experience, on proper cleaning and storage of barrels.

I can only assume your rifle is not shooting as well as it did 25 years ago, hence the interest in cleaning. It might be a good idea to have someone, with borescope experience, to examine that rifle. There could be some pitting present, among other things.

 

[JLT]

I chose CFE 223 specifically because it was named by several of those who said that it would clean a fouled bore. I know that it's fast burning and I think that might have something to do with why it works. The Hodgdon reloading data site doesn't list a 7mm RM load for CFE 223, but it does list a 100 gr. load for an even faster burning powder (Varget) so I planned to work up a 100 gr. load based on the 7mm-08 load. I'm curious why you would recommend a slower burning powder and heavier load.

Thank you for the recommendation on the Bore Tech products. I will add them to my research list. I assume that I would still need a separate powder solvent when using them.

RL-23 is just a better choice for the 7mm Rem Mag. If you want to use CFE 223 with light bullets, go right ahead but I think you would be better off with something more suitable for the magnum case. I'm pretty sure no one has ever built a 7 Mag to shoot 100 gr. bullets. Further, I would not use powder charges recommended for a smaller case. It does not necessarily follow that a charge of faster burning powder in the 7-08 will behave itself in a case of much greater capacity. The starting load for Varget and a 100 gr. bullet in the 7mm Rem Mag is well over the maximum load for Varget and the same bullet in the 7-08. Using one in the other may have unpleasant or catastrophic results.

CFE 223 is fast burning in the context of a 7 Mag's case capacity. It is glacially slow in the context of a .218 Bee. It's relative to something else, in this case it is case capacity. The burn rate has no effect on the efficacy of fouling inhibitors. RL-23 is also formulated with fouling inhibitors and it is just better suited for the 7 Mag. Truth be told, the 'secret sauce' in most powders that claim to reduce (not eliminate) copper fouling is plain old calcium carbonate. Baking soda by another name.

With regard to the Bore Tech products, Eliminator does a fine job with powder fouling. You don't really need a separate solvent.

Please exercise caution when trying to extrapolate published load data! If the powder manufacturer does not publish data for a certain powder in a chambering, they may have a very good reason. Be safe!

 

[FatOldMIHunter]

I can only assume your rifle is not shooting as well as it did 25 years ago, hence the interest in cleaning. It might be a good idea to have someone, with borescope experience, to examine that rifle. There could be some pitting present, among other things.

I can't honestly say that it's not shooting as well as it ever has. I'm just more focused on accuracy now than I was back then and I want to see how close I can get to sub MOA with it. The re-breakin was recommended in several articles that I've read.

 

[FatOldMIHunter]

RL-23 is just a better choice for the 7mm Rem Mag. If you want to use CFE 223 with light bullets, go right ahead but I think you would be better off with something more suitable for the magnum case. I'm pretty sure no one has ever built a 7 Mag to shoot 100 gr. bullets. Further, I would not use powder charges recommended for a smaller case. It does not necessarily follow that a charge of faster burning powder in the 7-08 will behave itself in a case of much greater capacity. The starting load for Varget and a 100 gr. bullet in the 7mm Rem Mag is well over the maximum load for Varget and the same bullet in the 7-08. Using one in the other may have unpleasant or catastrophic results.

CFE 223 is fast burning in the context of a 7 Mag's case capacity. It is glacially slow in the context of a .218 Bee. It's relative to something else, in this case it is case capacity. The burn rate has no effect on the efficacy of fouling inhibitors. RL-23 is also formulated with fouling inhibitors and it is just better suited for the 7 Mag. Truth be told, the 'secret sauce' in most powders that claim to reduce (not eliminate) copper fouling is plain old calcium carbonate. Baking soda by another name.

With regard to the Bore Tech products, Eliminator does a fine job with powder fouling. You don't really need a separate solvent.

Please exercise caution when trying to extrapolate published load data! If the powder manufacturer does not publish data for a certain powder in a chambering, they may have a very good reason. Be safe!

Thank you for the safety warning. I was not planning to extrapolate from the Varget load for the 7mm-08. Varget is just an example of a faster burn rate. The .375 H&H Mag has a higher case capacity and a CFE 223 load for several much heavier bullets. So the prospect of using a fast powder in a large case is not too scary. I would start with the starting load for CFE 223 with a 100 gr. round for the 7mm-08.

And again, we have a case of dueling experts here. I don't know which to believe and have no particular reason to believe those who haven't tried it over those who have. This is why I would consider running the experiment.

 

[JLT]

Thank you for the safety warning. I was not planning to extrapolate from the Varget load for the 7mm-08. Varget is just an example of a faster burn rate. The .375 H&H Mag has a higher case capacity and a CFE 223 load for several much heavier bullets. So the prospect of using a fast powder in a large case is not too scary. I would start with the starting load for CFE 223 with a 100 gr. round for the 7mm-08.

And again, we have a case of dueling experts here. I don't know which to believe and have no particular reason to believe those who haven't tried it over those who have. This is why I would consider running the experiment.

My apologies - I should have been more clear. Using 7-08 load data in a 7mm Rem Mag is potentially dangerous. The case capacities are dramatically different and a given charge of powder behind a given bullet are almost certain to produce radically different pressure curves. I WOULD NOT recommend using 7-08 data in the 7mm Rem Mag under any circumstances. You run the chance of ruining your rifle and/or injuring yourself in the process - neither is worth it. Note that the bore/capacity ratio for the .375 H&H is quite different from the other chamberings at issue and is not at all relevant to the conversation.

You mention dueling experts and your're not sure where to place your trust. This community is well represented with true experts - these are people that have helped change the game in a number of competitive disciplines. I may not have the stripes earned in competition that many here have earned, but I have been reloading for over 40 years and I am quite familiar with mathematics and physics (let me know if you want to get into the gory details). Also, I used to make a living behind a rifle. PLEASE BELIEVE ME when I tell you that starting 'with the starting load for CFE 223 with a 100 gr. round for the 7mm-08' in a 7mm Rem Mag is potentially dangerous.

 

[FatOldMIHunter]

My apologies - I should have been more clear. Using 7-08 load data in a 7mm Rem Mag is potentially dangerous. The case capacities are dramatically different and a given charge of powder behind a given bullet are almost certain to produce radically different pressure curves. I WOULD NOT recommend using 7-08 data in the 7mm Rem Mag under any circumstances. You run the chance of ruining your rifle and/or injuring yourself in the process - neither is worth it. Note that the bore/capacity ratio for the .375 H&H is quite different from the other chamberings at issue and is not at all relevant to the conversation.

You mention dueling experts and your're not sure where to place your trust. This community is well represented with true experts - these are people that have helped change the game in a number of competitive disciplines. I may not have the stripes earned in competition that many here have earned, but I have been reloading for over 40 years and I am quite familiar with mathematics and physics (let me know if you want to get into the gory details). Also, I used to make a living behind a rifle. PLEASE BELIEVE ME when I tell you that starting 'with the starting load for CFE 223 with a 100 gr. round for the 7mm-08' in a 7mm Rem Mag is potentially dangerous.

Okay, you're familiar with math and physics, so let's talk specifics. First, let me correct myself. I am keeping loads for a few different calibers in my head and the 100 gr. bullet was for a different caliber that I am reloading. There is a 115 gr. load of a faster burning powder (Varget) for the 7mm RM. The starting load is 53 gr. There is a 115 gr. load of Varget for the 7mm-08. The starting load is 43 gr. That's 23% more powder for the starting load of a faster powder, for the exact same bullet (Speer HP) for the 7mm RM. There is a CFE 223 load for the 7mm-08 for the exact same bullet. The starting load is 45.4 gr. Please explain what physics would come into play that would make a maximum 23% increase (55.8 gr.) in the slower burning CFE 223 for the exact same bullet in the 7mm RM unsafe. I'm not trying to work up a load for maximum accuracy or velocity. I'm only trying to melt some copper so that it will get wiped out with one pull of a dry boresnake. I'm aware that too little powder might result in a bullet not leaving the barrel, but that will be detected by the boresnake and it seems highly unlikely. So it really seems extremely unlikely that I would be risking rifle or life if I started with 46 - 55 gr. of CFE 223 and then looked for signs of over/under pressure.

And regarding the dueling experts, can you really call someone an expert at something they haven't tried? I understand that there are people here who have a lot of experience at working with custom barrels that they breakin properly and keep fairly clean, but none so far have said that they tried to do what others have said that they have successfully done. If you were showing me the results of borescoping or some other means of detecting efficacy of copper removal, I would be foolish not to listen, but I'm not seeing that. So is there nobody on this site who has tried this?

 

[seymour fish]

Thank you for the safety warning. I was not planning to extrapolate from the Varget load for the 7mm-08. Varget is just an example of a faster burn rate. The .375 H&H Mag has a higher case capacity and a CFE 223 load for several much heavier bullets. So the prospect of using a fast powder in a large case is not too scary. I would start with the starting load for CFE 223 with a 100 gr. round for the 7mm-08.

And again, we have a case of dueling experts here. I don't know which to believe and have no particular reason to believe those who haven't tried it over those who have. This is why I would consider running the experiment.

Fat, you would be safer if you took up base-jumping

 

[JRS]

Okay, you're familiar with math and physics, so let's talk specifics. First, let me correct myself. I am keeping loads for a few different calibers in my head and the 100 gr. bullet was for a different caliber that I am reloading. There is a 115 gr. load of a faster burning powder (Varget) for the 7mm RM. The starting load is 53 gr. There is a 115 gr. load of Varget for the 7mm-08. The starting load is 43 gr. That's 23% more powder for the starting load of a faster powder, for the exact same bullet (Speer HP) for the 7mm RM. There is a CFE 223 load for the 7mm-08 for the exact same bullet. The starting load is 45.4 gr. Please explain what physics would come into play that would make a maximum 23% increase (55.8 gr.) in the slower burning CFE 223 for the exact same bullet in the 7mm RM unsafe. I'm not trying to work up a load for maximum accuracy or velocity. I'm only trying to melt some copper so that it will get wiped out with one pull of a dry boresnake. I'm aware that too little powder might result in a bullet not leaving the barrel, but that will be detected by the boresnake and it seems highly unlikely. So it really seems extremely unlikely that I would be risking rifle or life if I started with 46 - 55 gr. of CFE 223 and then looked for signs of over/under pressure.

And regarding the dueling experts, can you really call someone an expert at something they haven't tried? I understand that there are people here who have a lot of experience at working with custom barrels that they breakin properly and keep fairly clean, but none so far have said that they tried to do what others have said that they have successfully done. If you were showing me the results of borescoping or some other means of detecting efficacy of copper removal, I would be foolish not to listen, but I'm not seeing that. So is there nobody on this site who has tried this?

You are not going to "melt some copper" by continuing to shoot without proper cleaning. CFE223 powder or not, without proper cleaning, you will continue to build-up copper in the bore. CFE223 will not remove copper from the bore.

Here is a quote from Hodgdon…. "CFE greatly reduces copper fouling. CFE will not remove existing fouling, so it is necessary to start with a clean barrel".

 

[6MMsteve]

I've had a Browning A-bolt 7mm Rem Mag for about 25 years. I bought it new and I've used it for hunting and I doubt that it has had more than 200 rounds through it. I haven't cleaned it often, but I never did a proper break in on it. Now I'm creating a range that will allow me to shoot out to 400 yds and I want to get my accuracy up for shooting at that range. I plan on trying to clean the copper fouling out and then go through a proper breakin. I'll be reloading my ammo and I'll be shooting seated with a Lead Sled on a stable platform.

For clearing the copper fouling, I'm considering shooting the barrel clean using CFE 223 or some other copper melting powder. I may go with this method just for the sake of seeing whether it will work. The other option of course is to chemically clean it with solvents and bore brushing, probably using a boresnake. What are the pros and cons of these approaches in this situation?

without a borescope you will be clueless, and have cluemonia, clueburcolosous, and the black clue death, and coppercleanaphobia. I had coppercleanaphobia for years it almost brushed out my barrel till the doctors come up with Lymanborescopavision and I was cured I had to have my right shoulder replaced from strokidous