7 twist on a 26" .223

[Ned Ludd]

The .223 case has plenty of capacity to shoot 90 bullets at 2850 fps and 80 gr bullets at around 3000 fps. Plenty of people cleaning up with rifles set up to shoot these in F-TR MR matches out to 600 yd. IMO, AI is really unnecessary unless you have a very specific reason for it. Frankly, even in that situation there are much better parent cases than the .223AI if you really have a need to push an 80+ gr bullet faster than 3000 fps.

OP, the Wylde chamber will give you many options with respect to bullet weight down the road, without limiting your ability to shoot 55s, 69s, etc. Along the same line, a 26" 7-twist barrel will not limit your ability to shoot lighter bullets in commercial loads for now, but will give you the flexibility to go heavier later if you choose. You'll be giving up a fair bit of velocity and performance at 22" barrel length. As others have noted, I'd suggest at least 26" to 28" unless there is a critical gun weight or maneuverability issue.

 

[boltman223]

The .223 case has plenty of capacity to shoot 90 bullets at 2850 fps and 80 gr bullets at around 3000 fps. Plenty of people cleaning up with rifles set up to shoot these in F-TR MR matches out to 600 yd. IMO, AI is really unnecessary unless you have a very specific reason for it. Frankly, even in that situation there are much better parent cases than the .223AI if you really have a need to push an 80+ gr bullet faster than 3000 fps.

OP, the Wylde chamber will give you many options with respect to bullet weight down the road, without limiting your ability to shoot 55s, 69s, etc. Along the same line, a 26" 7-twist barrel will not limit your ability to shoot lighter bullets in commercial loads for now, but will give you the flexibility to go heavier later if you choose. You'll be giving up a fair bit of velocity and performance at 22" barrel length. As others have noted, I'd suggest at least 26" to 28" unless there is a critical gun weight or maneuverability issue.

I'm glad you chimed in Greg. I agree with you for sure.

However I do feel a little different (from the little I've seen) about the long freebore ( say .169) and light bullets such as 69 grains. At least when it comes to reloading, factory ammo I don't know.

 

[Ned Ludd]

Wasn't referring to a .169" freebore chamber. Rather, I suggested a Wylde chamber, which has .0619" freebore. The PTG 223 Rem Match chamber at .068 freebore should also work pretty well for a variety of bullet weights. I generally view the .169 freebore as specific for the 90s, although you can seat the 80.5s in the Rem ISSF chamber (.169" fb), they're pretty far out there.

 

[rmist]

Greg has some excellent points and should be listened to. I did when I started this same trek last year. With the Berger 80.5's my free bore started out at .097" and worked great for this bullet. I didn't go longer because I had no intentions of shooting the 90's ! You don't give much up in mid range with this setup ! Even on the fairly windy days I was shooting the 595's. Give them a try and you won't be disappointed.

 

[boltman223]

although you can seat the 80.5s in the Rem ISSF chamber (.169" fb), they're pretty far out there.

Greg, Curious, what do you see as a problem with this? I know if there is not enough bullet in the case it could get knocked crooked or easily pulled out of the case. Is there that little of a berger 80.5 in the case?

 

[Ned Ludd]

I haven't actually loaded/shot 80.5s in my rifle chambered with .0169" freebore, but I have loaded some dummy rounds just to see where the bullet would be at ~ .015 off the lands. It's pretty far out there. However, I think it would work just fine and I believe Laurie Holland has shot both bullets in that chamber. It just looks to my eye like the 80.5s are seated just about as far out as you'd ever want them. Of course, you could alway do a seating depth test and look for a sweet spot with the bullet jumped much further than .015" if the amount of shank in the neck was ever an issue. I have another .223 I use for the 80.5s and the 90 VLDs are working very well out of my .169" freebore rifle, so I have never had any reason to shoot the 80.5s out of the long freebore rifle. As I mentioned, it's not that it can't be done, I just don't have any good reason to do it that way.

As rmist mentioned, somewhere in the neighborhood of .100" freebore, give or take a few thousandths, seems just about optimal for the 80.5s. An extra ~.070" freebore is quite a bit more than that, but again, not a deal-breaker. IMO, neither of these chambers would be particularly well-suited to commercial loads, even though you might well find a particular commercial load that shoots very well jumped a country mile. It's just that those chambers are not the right tool for that job, IMO. I reload, so I can optimize the freebore for the bullet(s) I choose. If you're using commercial ammo, it's much easier to have a chamber cut such as the Wylde or PTG 223 Match that is a proven performer with bullet weights (lengths) commonly found in commercial ammo. In fact, you could go quite a bit shorter on the freebore than either of those chambers and use commercial loads with no problem. However, the OP indicated that he might reload in the future. In my mind, that strongly suggests he may consider trying something like the 80.5 for performance reasons. So either of those two chambers would allow loading of longer/heavier bullets in the future, while not forcing the lighter (shorter) factory bullets to be jumped quite so far. Basically, I'd view it as a compromise to accommodate either possibility. Perhaps not optimal for either, but it ought to work reasonably well.

 

[raptor1ronin]

Ok well, look at some results from some matches. Load up some 90's in a 223. Talk to Gstaylorg,skiutah02, Laurie, myself along with numerous others on here and I bet this will change↓↓↓↓↓

I love the 90vld as much as these guys do, And agree that if you can shoot the 90'S i would most definitely do so.

Club Match 500 Yards 200-17X


1000 YARDS Practice


SWBN Shooting 90VLD

 

[Ned Ludd]

That's some fine shooting there, John! The 90s shoot well, no doubt, but cleans are hard to come by, no matter what you're shooting. Outstanding!

 

[Stumpy1]

Another option for the OP would be to use the PTG 223 Rem Match chamber, and pick up a uni-throater and move the freebore out a bit when/if he wants/decides to shoot heavy bullets more exclusively.

Just a thought.

Frank

 

[jsthntn247]

I'm strongly considering building a 223 trainer on a prefit with a Wylde chamber and running the 90 smk's at mag length (2.550). I wouldn't be expecting to hit the high nodes with this rig, but I think 2650-2700 would be attainable by using a ball powder due to the limited case capacity.

 

[raptor1ronin]

That's some fine shooting there, John! The 90s shoot well, no doubt, but cleans are hard to come by, no matter what you're shooting. Outstanding!

Thanks Greg, And thank you for the help last year at the San Diego match , your information help most tremendously and gave me the push to want to shoot the .223 over a .308.

 

[Ned Ludd]

You're welcome, glad I could be of assistance. Accurate Shooter now has quite the repertoire of shooters that have had very good success shooting the 90 VLDs in F-TR; Laurie (Holland), skiutah02, Scott Harris, XTR, boltman223, raptor1ronin, jsthntn247, r bose, 1911mag, and I'm certain there are several others (sorry if I missed anyone). I have either shot with some of these folks, or at least seen some of their scores from matches, and their performances have been really outstanding shooting the 90 VLDs. Further, I have found these guys to be great resources with regard to helping others get their setups with the 90s working. IMO, that's what this forum is really all about. Robert Pitcairn's outstanding article entitled "A Mouse On Steroids", really a must read for any 90 VLD shooter, might possibly have even understated the power of the 90 VLD for F-TR in its title. I think a number of shooters have experienced firsthand what the mighty 90 VLD can do in F-TR when loaded properly, and this forum has been a great place for anyone interested in shooting them to get started. Let's keep it going!

 

[BP1]

jsthntn247,the rifle I pmd you about has the Wylde chamber.On that particular rifle I am loading the smk from base to ogive at 2.015 with 25gr of pp2000 I will try to get out this weekend and let you know what the speeds are this gun has a 26'' barrel and shoots lightsout.

 

[mjgillen]

A Mouse On Steroids by Robert Pitcairn starts on page 35 here:

http://www.dcra.ca/Marksman/Marksman Summer Autumn 2012.pdf

 

[flatlander]

While the Wylde chamber is a pretty good choice for a 223 AR15, the body dimensions are a little looser than that of the PTG 223 Match reamer, which is logical, since Bill Wylde designed it to be used in ARs. Since the freebore of the two reamers is so similar, the Match reamer would be a better choice for a bolt rifle. I've used this reamer on several of my own 223 bbls, and it works great as-is, or in conjunction with a .224" throating reamer if you want to take the freebore out farther for use with 90VLDs. However, one of my rifles is a 223AI, and shoots very well indeed with either 90VLDs or LRBTs (no longer available from Berger) with either bullet seated to max length for AI poly mags. I'd have to take a look at that reamer to see for sure what the freebore dimension is, but IIRC, it's very close to the same as my Match & Wylde reamers.

Also, a mini-16 extractor would be a good choice for a PTG custom 1-pc bolt, and it's on the option list on PTG's website, as is the full size M16 extractor. Howa uses these M16-style extractors on their 1500 short actions in 223, so there's no reason not to go that route with your rifle.

I've done one 30" std Palma bbl using the PTG 223 Match reamer, followed by the throater, since that bbl was intended specifically for use with 90s. I can get 2900+fps with 90s out of it, using N550. Downside to that powder is that it's expensive & temp sensitive. But N550 is superior to Alliant MR2000PP in that it gives more consistent spreads & SDs. Given the results several of the shooters who've posted replies to this thread have been getting with Berger's 90s, it's hard for me to figure why they haven't made several more runs of these excellent bullets recently. Perhaps the issues they were having with jacket consistency played a big part - but now that they've gotten a handle on that problem, we may soon be seeing some 22 cal 90s with even better performance than the previous lots have shown.