6PPC VS 6mmBR Opinions on Accuracy

[BoydAllen]

Problem is Boyd, We know it all after the first year. We get a couple more barrels, different powders, and bullets and go in the trashcan.

....which is why I make a point of telling him not to change things that work. I have gotten several people started with the basics of running a LV in 6PPC. Invariably, after shooting their first teen group, under ideal conditions, using a bullet that is easy to find and tune, the first thing that comes out of their mouths is to ask me about better bullets, something harder to get, more exotic. My friend has started out with Column bullets and they have given him groups small enough to win, if he can keep the rifle in tune for every match. Human nature seem to gravitate toward trying to find equipment solutions for operator issues.

 

[Ccrider]

Yeah Boyd. Don’t be a party pooper. Deflecting fault is part of the fun.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Was Mike Stinnett's 30 Stewart a 30BR or Grendel? Remember Michael Turner's 30-30 has shot a few teen aggs.

Stinnett's record was fired using a necked up Grendel case.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I think that shooters who are good enough to benefit from slight differences in excellent cartridges, and who have the budget. will not require any advice as to what they might try, but I am concerned that someone who is just starting out might spend hard to come by money on something that is not well proven.

Years ago, someone who was a leader in the rimfire tuner world would post that centerfire tuners work just the same as rimfire. Previously I had read of carefully done tests using those barrel contours and tuners on a PPC that failed to produce acceptable results, so I challenged him to build a rifle that proved what he had said. He never did. If fact a prominent shooter offered to have one built if he would furnish the specifications. He did not take him up on that offer. The reason that I challenged his statements is that I did not want someone to go on an expensive wild goose chase. Most new shooters that I know of will not be limited in the least by starting with a 6PPC, and given the great amount of information available for that caliber, and typical limitations of understanding of tuning, I think that the advantage will always be there.

Recently a friend completed his first year in short range group benchrest. We discussed every match during the season. He has excellent equipment. Virtually all of his groups that cost him were the result of shooter error, mostly in failing to maintain tune through changes in temperature. No equipment or component change would have prevented them. Neither would a change in caliber. His overall record for the season was excellent, and I expect next year to show improvement. My message to him has been consistent. If you know that something works, leave it alone and concentrate on the things that are giving you trouble. The object of shooting benchrest matches is to win them. Do your experimenting between matches and take the best that you have to matches. Avoid doing unnecessary experiments at matches.

Lots of points but I won't bother with most. I would like know what constitutes "proven" to you though, Boyd.
A UBR national championship, shooting against many of the best shooters in the world, many of which were shooting a ppc, evidently is not enough proof for you.
That's ok. I think I know what your response is already. Give a UBR Nationals a try before dismissing it. Same goes for something besides a ppc.
It costs essentially the same to try it as a ppc. No difference.

 

[BoydAllen]

Without looking back, I believe that all of my posts were about group shooting, with the exception of recommending .30BR for score, given that most readers are in areas where larger bullet holes are an advantage for score matches. Go back to the original post. This thread has gotten way off of the original topic, including my posts. His question was answered. I have not challenged anything that you have said about the suitability of calibers for UBR, and I am definitely not against experimentation. Generally, my point has been that experimenting should be left to those who have the money to comfortably afford the cost of a failure, and who are skilled enough to shoot the difference. It is my sincere belief that beginners will be better off sticking with winning main stream choices for a variety of reasons. I admire the thought behind UBR.

 

[dbduff]

It's not only the follow the leader aspect because a ppc is proven to be absolutely excellent and if there is improvement, at this point, it is small. But yes, a whole lot of it is very much due to what the top shooters are using and what is most popular. Some is due to the industry support of the most popular cartridge(s) as well.
As Boyd mentions, there is some cost and risk when trying something new but it doesn't have to be $1000 and if you stay with something very close to the ppc/br families, the risk is small. I mean how bad can a 6 Grendel be, for example, when it falls pretty much right between a ppc and a br and great components are readily available as well. In this example, much of the reasoning for using a ppc is muted because I load for mine much like I do for a ppc, just a tad more powder. The difference is that the Grendel shoulder is .070 forward of a PPC...not much difference here and if going a tad bigger is the wrong direction, how does one explain how well a BR or a BR Improved is doing?
The benefits, to me, of a Grendel are a tad more speed, less powder compression and no fire forming from 220r lapua brass.
Ultimately, I believe that what it does is optimize capacity to match available powders that work in both, using the same weight bullets.
I've not run the numbers but I think if you look at UBR, there are a few more ppc's than anything else but not by a great margin, i.e. group shooting, where nearly 100% of competitors are shooting it. We as a whole are very slow to accept change in this sport.
The logic for trying something different is simple..If the top shooters are beating you, why do exactly what they are already better at? To me, competition is about trying to find an edge wherever it can be found, within the rules. And yes, I enjoy the experimenting that it brings. I feel like the Grendel is worthwhile or, I'd be shooting a ppc before it gets dark tonight. One thing is very certain, if everyone shoots a ppc, it'll never be beaten. Very few designs that have been around as long as it has are still considered the best in any other sport that I can think of. The ppc is what, 45ish years old? It's still great but if all but a small handful of relatively unknown shooters were shooting a Grendel for example, would that small handful of ppc shooters dominate today. I can say for certain that the answer to that is, no. The best shooters, with the best barrels, bullets, tune and fewest mistakes will still win. I'm an above average shooter but certainly not great...but I have beaten a lot of ppc's with a Grendel, steered by some great shooters. So, what does that tell us? I do not feel out gunned, I will say that and leave it at that.

Just fireformingfor a Grinch. So far, fireforming brass at 300 is showing 5 shot groups you can cover with a quarter. I like it a lot!

 

[johnmyers]

The only b.r. based case that shot close to the ppc in short range with any success is, was the tall dog family albeit either .080- .100 short which guess what, is the same capacity as the ppc. except with alot more pain making cases. everyone seems to forget its powder volume to bore size to pressure.

George hit it!!

 

[Bill Norris]

Thanks for all the info guys. I think I have enough to base my thoughts on with my new 6mmBR's

 

[Bill Norris]

Was looking back thru some "old" targets and data from 2007 that I had shot with a 6 x 47 Shehane that I purchased directly from him and found this 500 yd. target. I think it measured a .991 after cal. deduction. I was also shooting the caps off of 2 litre pop bottles that day. I' m hoping my new 6mmBR will shoot like this as well.

 

[maddysdad]

t j Jackson a noted gun smith from texas I think shot a 6mm br years ago .there was a article by him in precision shooting about what he does to get the case to shoot in the .001she built a hv rifle for the publisher of that magazine then and sent him 50 case to shoot.the groups he showed were in the 0s for 5 shots at 100 yards.
go figure on this .gary b

 

[Eric Leonard]

I been considering doing a BR or BRA 12 twist for UBR this year to shoot 80 gr bullets..before I decide I thought I would try and see how fast a 12 twist 6ppc would shoot the 80s..

From a 24 inch 12 twist PPC bbl the most I could get and shoot good enough to stay on the dot was 3088 fps which is a tie in the wind with 68s at 3350 at 100 but should shoot well inside the 68s at 200 and 300.


27.5 lt32 and 80 gr Barts Bullnose bullets.

 

[ebb]

I had a friend that bought and sold rifles constantly. He asked me to shoot a 22 wall dog. I was convinced it was the most accurate round ever invented. I tried to buy it and he sold it out from under me and I bought a 6PPC. A few months later he bought his friends 30BR and let me shoot it, it was more accurate the my PPC and the waldog. If I had to shoot competitively and couldn't use a 6PPC I think a waldog or some other 22 caliber on a shortened PPC case would be what I would try. I heard once that when all else is perfect the limiting factor on the best groups is the center of gravity of the bullets and the 22s being smaller should have the best center of gravity????? maybe?????

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I been considering doing a BR or BRA 12 twist for UBR this year to shoot 80 gr bullets..before I decide I thought I would try and see how fast a 12 twist 6ppc would shoot the 80s..

From a 24 inch 12 twist PPC bbl the most I could get and shoot good enough to stay on the dot was 3088 fps which is a tie in the wind with 68s at 3350 at 100 but should shoot well inside the 68s at 200 and 300.


27.5 lt32 and 80 gr Barts Bullnose bullets.
View attachment 1144686

Very good ES! I think you'll find better speed and more joy with a tad slower powder. Try 8208, n135 and Benchmark. I'm shooting a Grendel but can get over 3300fps with no issues. Above that and brass life is short. I suspect you can get close...maybe 3175-3200ish. I'd start at 27.5 of 8208 and work up.

Were you seeing pressure with the lt32?

 

[Eric Leonard]

Very good ES! I think you'll find better speed and more joy with a tad slower powder. Try 8208, n135 and Benchmark. I'm shooting a Grendel but can get over 3300fps with no issues. Above that and brass life is short. I suspect you can get close...maybe 3175-3200ish. I'd start at 27.5 of 8208 and work up.

Were you seeing pressure with the lt32?

28 lt32 is starting g to get hot...8208 and 135 filled the case before I really saw pressure and they were some faster but still shot best at about 3080 to 3100..
I hit 3200 with Tac with no pressure but it didnt shoot very well at all.

I've shot my 8 twist BRA with 80s and it seems to get hot quickly .it cruises at 3300 though with no bolt lift at all.

 

[Eric Leonard]

How much difference is there really in a 6 grendel and a 6br ?

I'm not sure a ppc with 80s will be worthwhile over a ppc with 68s and not sure I want to shoot a BRA in a barrel light enough to make Custom class..maybe a BR or Grendel is where I end up.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

How much difference is there really in a 6 grendel and a 6br ?

I'm not sure a ppc with 80s will be worthwhile over a ppc with 68s and not sure I want to shoot a BRA in a barrel light enough to make Custom class..maybe a BR or Grendel is where I end up.

A 6 Grendel uses a ppc bolt face and the capacity is right between a ppc and a BR.
FWIW, Joey Gregory won SOY in modified class with one and I won the Nationals with mine. Not bad!
Larry Moore won UL with a BRAI, too. It's worth mentioning that my buddy Murray Gilbert won modified at the Nats, shooting a PPC...So it can't be bad either! Lol!

 

[Eric Leonard]

A 6 Grendel uses a ppc bolt face and the capacity is right between a ppc and a BR.
FWIW, Joey Gregory won SOY in modified class with one and I won the Nationals with mine. Not bad!
Larry Moore won UL with a BRAI, too. It's worth mentioning that my buddy Murray Gilbert won modified at the Nats, shooting a PPC...So it can't be bad either! Lol!

I think about 5 or 6 eyeballs and a quicker trigger finger would help at Dry Branch more than anything..lol

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I think about 5 or 6 eyeballs and a quicker trigger finger would help at Dry Branch more than anything..lol

Oh yes...No chambering is gonna fix those things. That place has been a real treat! Great place but as tough as anywhere I've seen. That just makes ya better, if it doesn't drive ya nuts first.

 

[Mark W]

I been considering doing a BR or BRA 12 twist for UBR this year to shoot 80 gr bullets..

I built a 23” 12 Twist BRA last year. It easily shoots 80 Bart’s over 3300fps using 8208 XBR. Groups in the .3s come easily with some in the .1s. There’s no doubt a better driver could do better.

Even though I only compete against myself, my goal this year is to tighten up my bench technique which I believe is hurting my consistency.

 

[SSeal]

I been considering doing a BR or BRA 12 twist for UBR this year to shoot 80 gr bullets..before I decide I thought I would try and see how fast a 12 twist 6ppc would shoot the 80s..

From a 24 inch 12 twist PPC bbl the most I could get and shoot good enough to stay on the dot was 3088 fps which is a tie in the wind with 68s at 3350 at 100 but should shoot well inside the 68s at 200 and 300.


27.5 lt32 and 80 gr Barts Bullnose bullets.
View attachment 1144686

I am getting 3175 out of my 24" 12 twist with Barts 80gr dominator using 30.5 gr of h4895 and a cci450 primer. This is in a straight 6br.