Depends how you look at things I think in terms of accuracy from a 100 to a 1000 the the 6br imp. is it, With a 80 gr. Bart and 8208 it shot mid to low zeros with a 12 twist barrel at 100, put an 8 twist barrel on and it will shoot in small and win at 600 and 1000 with H4895 and Barts 105. that is one gun and one case and two barrels capable of match winning accuracy over a 1000 yds and it does it easy..... jim
6PPC VS 6mmBR Opinions on Accuracy
- Thread starter Bill Norris
- Start date
Bill Norris
Back in the Day
BUT, agreeing with a couple of previous contributors all things being equal it is next to impossible for anything else to ever prove itself on a short course when the whole line is mostly 6PPC.
Not many of them competitive at 600 or a 1000. If you had only one gun it would be the 6 br imp. it will shoot with them at 1-200 and rip them to pieces from there out..... jim
jimmymac
Jim McGregor
But...the real question in my mind then, is why does everybody and their brother still shoot a PPC in short range group shooting? Is the game completely or almost completely comprised of follow the leader closed minded types or is there more to it that allows that cartridge to persist?
It also used to do a lot of winning in VFS matches prior to the advent of the 30BR from what I’ve been told. Even now in caliber neutral UBR competition the line is littered with PPC’s even though you can shoot what you bring. I don’t know the percentages, but I’d bet it’s the lions share. Why would that be?
As Mike alluded to earlier, if some hot cartridge is going to present itself as a challenger to the king, UBR is probably where it will start.
To me, this is a great conversation. It’s obviously veered some from the original intent, but it is thought provoking. At least in my mind it is. Also, I hope I haven’t ruffled any feathers. It was certainly not my intent. No malice from over here. Just thinking about possibilities for the future, like can my shoulder hold up to a LV 30BR two gun agg. I do have access to one, although it would probably go better in more accomplished hands than mine.
It also used to do a lot of winning in VFS matches prior to the advent of the 30BR from what I’ve been told. Even now in caliber neutral UBR competition the line is littered with PPC’s even though you can shoot what you bring. I don’t know the percentages, but I’d bet it’s the lions share. Why would that be?
As Mike alluded to earlier, if some hot cartridge is going to present itself as a challenger to the king, UBR is probably where it will start.
To me, this is a great conversation. It’s obviously veered some from the original intent, but it is thought provoking. At least in my mind it is. Also, I hope I haven’t ruffled any feathers. It was certainly not my intent. No malice from over here. Just thinking about possibilities for the future, like can my shoulder hold up to a LV 30BR two gun agg. I do have access to one, although it would probably go better in more accomplished hands than mine.
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BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
There is an issue here that should be brought up. Assuming a compatible bolt face, and that your smith already has the reamer, trying out a caliber that is new to you costs about a grand. IMO that is the main reason for people using what has been winning. They are not willing, or don't have the money to spend on what may turn out to be a failed experiment, and I don't blame them a bit. In short range group BR my advice continues to be that new shooters need to buy a 10.5# 6PPC as their first rifle. If your area does not have UBR matches, and score is your game, my recommendation is a 13.5# .30 BR.
It's not only the follow the leader aspect because a ppc is proven to be absolutely excellent and if there is improvement, at this point, it is small. But yes, a whole lot of it is very much due to what the top shooters are using and what is most popular. Some is due to the industry support of the most popular cartridge(s) as well.
As Boyd mentions, there is some cost and risk when trying something new but it doesn't have to be $1000 and if you stay with something very close to the ppc/br families, the risk is small. I mean how bad can a 6 Grendel be, for example, when it falls pretty much right between a ppc and a br and great components are readily available as well. In this example, much of the reasoning for using a ppc is muted because I load for mine much like I do for a ppc, just a tad more powder. The difference is that the Grendel shoulder is .070 forward of a PPC...not much difference here and if going a tad bigger is the wrong direction, how does one explain how well a BR or a BR Improved is doing?
The benefits, to me, of a Grendel are a tad more speed, less powder compression and no fire forming from 220r lapua brass.
Ultimately, I believe that what it does is optimize capacity to match available powders that work in both, using the same weight bullets.
I've not run the numbers but I think if you look at UBR, there are a few more ppc's than anything else but not by a great margin, i.e. group shooting, where nearly 100% of competitors are shooting it. We as a whole are very slow to accept change in this sport.
The logic for trying something different is simple..If the top shooters are beating you, why do exactly what they are already better at? To me, competition is about trying to find an edge wherever it can be found, within the rules. And yes, I enjoy the experimenting that it brings. I feel like the Grendel is worthwhile or, I'd be shooting a ppc before it gets dark tonight. One thing is very certain, if everyone shoots a ppc, it'll never be beaten. Very few designs that have been around as long as it has are still considered the best in any other sport that I can think of. The ppc is what, 45ish years old? It's still great but if all but a small handful of relatively unknown shooters were shooting a Grendel for example, would that small handful of ppc shooters dominate today. I can say for certain that the answer to that is, no. The best shooters, with the best barrels, bullets, tune and fewest mistakes will still win. I'm an above average shooter but certainly not great...but I have beaten a lot of ppc's with a Grendel, steered by some great shooters. So, what does that tell us? I do not feel out gunned, I will say that and leave it at that.
Some years back, on BRC, Jackie Schmidt made a post about chambering a barrel first in ppc then BR both using same neck and lead. Don’t remember the details, but his conclusion was that the agging capability of the ppc was 20 or 30 thou better than the BR. Most would consider Jackie competent enough to conduct such an evaluation.
Not necessarily true! It’s about agging capability! A good shooter with a cartridge that’s capable of hanging with the 6PPC should be able to put up competitive numbers against it. Doesn’t matter how many PPCs are on the line.
The other thing that’s in favor of the 6PPC remaining the King of Short Range is how Small the Aggs are! Guys aren’t looking at short range group stats! Aggs are very small!
I’ve tried to make a run at the 6ppc with a few different cartridges. Had some success, but I’m back on a straight 6PPC for short range.
Bart
Is the 6br imp, 6bra, and 6 Improved Ackley all the same chambering?
For some of us just looking at the outside in at this new round, it gets a little confusing. Thanks!
searcher
Gold $$ Contributor
Regarding whether bullets are fully stabilized by 100 yards or not, I repeated the findings of those who have tested and show photographic evidence to support what they say. That doesn't mean I care about it one way or the other. To have to prove to some other person what I read as findings of others is pretty lame. The other party likely can't disprove it so it is a mute point. If extensive bullet testing by all the bullet manufacturers came to a particular conclusion regarding stabilization or any other aspect of bullet flight - I'd tend to think that has merit. I'm not sure there is a consensus on that - or at least I haven't read it. If one caliber is better than another - at the end of the day it doesn't make much difference in point blank shooting in my own opinion. In any serious competition - most all of the guns shot by serious competitors are capable of shooting groups in the ones and maybe lower. Most of those that shoot really well can do it with various calibers. Aside from accuracy, I'm sure lots will gravitate to the lowest recoiling round that will do the job. In practicality - that leaves us with the PPC. This is like getting a consensus on fluting barrels, whether short barrels are better due to stiffness, etc. Matters little when the skill of the shooter overrides all these factors combined.
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
IMO if a prominent shooter won several times, decisively, with a different cartridge, others would immediately follow. Unlike the OP on this thread, who seems to be less motivated by a pure desire to win, regardless of the equipment, many in short range ARE there to do the best that they can, even if it means shooting a rifle out of class. But until someone demonstrates a new caliber's superiority, they are unwilling to bet a thousand dollars or more on conjecture. What gets me are the fellows who make condescending remarks about those that follow what has been shown to work, when I see no evident of them putting their money where their mouths are.
Having said all of that, let me tell you a story. Many years back, a fellow that I knew bought a rifle out of an estate. It was built around a Hall action clone that was of very high quality, a Knight. I think that there were only a dozen or so made. The stock was a McMillan benchrest stock, the original one. With the scope and barrel it weighed in at 12.5#. Finding that the pistol grip of my stock was a problem for an elongated (Haydon hump) rear bag that I had just bought, I sold it to this fellow, and after shooting it for a while he told me that it worked so well with his rifle that for some shots he did not have to re-aim (short range group benchrest). The only issue was that the barrel was getting a little long in the tooth and he was planning to replace it. Discussing that, he told me that he was going to order one that was longer and heavier to bring the rifle up to the class limit (13.5#). When I heard that I pointed out that the weight was a limit, and not a requirement and that his rifle was tracking better than most that I was aware of, balanced just the way that it was, with its original barrel, I suggested that he measure it and duplicate it exactly. That went completely over his head.
My point is that we need to pay more attention to what works and less to pushing the limits of rifle rules.
Recently I had a barrel set back. By the time that the tenon had been cut off and the muzzle recrowned it measured 19.75" and of course weighed a little less. It handles and shoots better than it it did before the work was done. I think that some would try to add weight to the rifle to get back up closer to the limit, and might not want a barrel of that length. IMO they have become numbers driven rather than by results on target.
The only b.r. based case that shot close to the ppc in short range with any success is, was the tall dog family albeit either .080- .100 short which guess what, is the same capacity as the ppc. except with alot more pain making cases. everyone seems to forget its powder volume to bore size to pressure.
^^^^ I have 2 Hart rifles chambered in 6 Tall Dog and can attest to the work involved forming brass. Great accuracy but a real PITA.
Dusty Stevens
Shiner
Every top shooter has experimented. If there was something that would beat a ppc they would be using it. None of the top shooters are using a ppc because everybody else is.
The 6ppc is a tiny little underbore. You can run competitive pressures with it that you cannot in 6br.
Diminished returns = diminished variance in it. So while a few kernels of powder affect 6br, it would have no affect at all to 6ppc, even while a higher percentage of capacity. Same with normal neck tension variances.
This, in the long run.
Diminished returns = diminished variance in it. So while a few kernels of powder affect 6br, it would have no affect at all to 6ppc, even while a higher percentage of capacity. Same with normal neck tension variances.
This, in the long run.
A lot of absolutes in your post Dusty, but I know several very good shooters that are well versed in a ppc but openly admit to having no or nearly no experience with anything else. No one is saying that a PPC isn't great...It is. I only hope that we don't stay so close minded as to believe that any 45-50 year old design is the end all, be all. There are other variables like lot to lot variations and powders used. Some lots, IMHO, benefit from a tad more or less capacity to optimize that powder and bullet combo to the case capacity. I'm not one to use an electric toothbrush to vibrate cases so I can fit more powder into it. The fact that powder lots vary, to the point of going to extremes to get enough in the case, in itself, says that the case is not ideal for that powder, or vice versa. Very heavy compression slows a powder down a bit as well. When splitting hairs, and things such as lot to lot variations create a moving target in regard to perfect case capacity, I dare not claim absolutes and any improvement over a PPC will likely be very small.
Jimmy, I said one gun one case design over a 1000 yards, not only at 1 and 200, big difference. the PPC and the 30 dominate at point blank, but are not even remotely competitive beyond. The 6Br Imp may not win at UBR but it will be there but you take your 30 BR to a 600 match and see were you end up, The 6Br Imp will be there too you may not win but you have a chance. Same with a 1000, The Br Imp you are competitive everywhere from 100 to a 1000..... One gun and one Case,two barrels, the real switch barrel gun....... jim
Dusty, read my post one gun and one case over a 1000 yards. The PPC won't cut it nor will the mighty 30 Br...... jim
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