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6mmBR Short Range Accuracy

As a total novice, please forgive the naive question. I don't understand why the 6BR is not the ideal cartridge at 100 - 200 yards. The 6PPC is the favorite. Is is because the 6PPC is just more accurate than a 6BR, but can't sustain that out past 300 yards or so? Or is it that the 6BR doesn't stabilize well until out past 300 yards or so, and is behaving somewhat less than ideally at the 100 - 200 yard distance?

All my local ranges are 100 - 200 yard, but like the idea of trying for 600 yard. Seems one can not be in the hunt at both 100/200 and 600 using one cartridge?


- Phil
 
There's a whole bunch of things, which, linked together, translate to accuracy. Start with the fact that,in a vacuum), short fat bullets spinning at low rpm are more likely to arrive in the same hole than are long, pointy bullets spinning a lot faster. The 6PPC,which is a modified 220 Russian necked to 6mm) has enough case capacity to drive short, 60-70 grain bullets to their optimal velocity,at least what we think is optimal). The 6BR can do the same--but will use more powder in so doing. So right now, if we presume the short bullets are more accurate,at least at 100 yards), there is no need for the bigger 6BR case.

That said, I do think, at 200 yards, in windy conditions, a 6BR with turned necks and, say, 90gr bullets, could possibly out-Agg a 6PPC. The PPC would probably still have the smallest group I suspect, but the 6BR might have the smallest average of 5 targets. Until someone actually tries a 10- or 8-twist 6BR in "point-blank" competition, however, this is all conjecture. Two years back, Jackie Schmidt ran an 8-twist 6BR railgun for a test we did. With Berger 105s moving nearly 3000 fps, he shot an honest 5x5 agg of .185 or so at 200 yards. That means the average of five measured groups was,2 x.185) or .370".,Benchresters divide their 200-yard groups by two). So the .185 Agg means the groups averaged .370 center to center. That Agg would have won many BR matches, including the recent NBRSA Nationals in Phoenix.

Lester Bruno is doing some experimentation with a 6BR railgun. One reason shooters are not trying the 6BR in a 10.5-lb bag gun is that any time you go to more powder and heavier bullets you end up with more recoil and more "jumpy" movement on the bags. Recoil and jump can harm accuracy, so thus far the 6BR-fast twist option has not been attractive for short-range benchrest.

Looking at the conditions in Phoenix and the measured groups at 200 yards, I predict, within a few years, someone shooting a 6BR or Dasher,or maybe even a 6XC) with heavy bullets will manage a Top Five finish in a 200-yard stage of a short-range BR match.,This presumes that someone will actually have the moxie to try something NEW.)

Does that seem far-fetched? Well consider that a 105gr VLD going 3050 fps will have roughly HALF the wind drift of a 68-grainer moving at 3300 fps. That's a pretty big "head start" out of the gate. In switchy, windy conditions, if the trigger-puller doesn't make perfect wind calls on every shot, the heavier bullet might retain an edge when all is said and done.

10 mph crosswind,90 degree wind drift) at 200 yards
6PPC,68gr bullet, 3300 fps): 4.01"
6 Dasher,105gr bullet, 3050 fps): 2.12"

Still, an 8-twist 6BR/Dasher has not been used successfully in short-range BR competition... to my knowledge. But keep in mind that the 30BR with 110-120 bullets is the dominant cartridge in Benchrest for score competition.,But that's a different game and the larger bullet diameter offers it's own distinct advantage in score shooting.)

At the local club level in "fun shoots", fast-twist 6BRs have actually been pretty competitive at both 100 and 200 yards. At my local club, the record for a 100-yard, 10-bull score shoot was set in 2007 by a 6BR shooting Berger 105s.
 
I am in the process right now of building a 6BR bench rest pistol. I will be shooting 100 to 600 yards, but mainly built for 200 yard competion. What would be your recomendations for twist, and bore diameter? Thanks!

John Roberts
 
There's a whole bunch of things, which, linked together, translate to accuracy. Start with the fact that,in a vacuum), short fat bullets spinning at low rpm are more likely to arrive in the same hole than are long, pointy bullets spinning a lot faster. The 6PPC,which is a modified 220 Russian necked to 6mm) has enough case capacity to drive short, 60-70 grain bullets to their optimal velocity,at least what we think is optimal). The 6BR can do the same--but will use more powder in so doing. So right now, if we presume the short bullets are more accurate,at least at 100 yards), there is no need for the bigger 6BR case.

That said, I do think, at 200 yards, in windy conditions, a 6BR with turned necks and, say, 90gr bullets, could possibly out-Agg a 6PPC. The PPC wprobably still have the smallest group I suspect, but the 6BR might have the smallest average of 5 targets. Until someone actually tries a 10- or 8-twist 6BR in "point-blank" competition, however, this is all conjecture. Two years back, Jackie Schmidt ran an 8-twist 6BR railgun for a test we did. With Berger 105s moving nearly 3000 fps, he shot an honest 5x5 agg of .185 or so at 200 yards. That means the average of five measured groups was,2 x.185) or .370".,Benchresters divide their 200-yard groups by two). So the .185 Agg means the groups averaged .370 center to center. That Agg would have won many BR matches, including the recent NBRSA Nationals in Phoenix.

Lester Bruno is doing some experimentation with a 6BR railgun. One reason shooters are not trying the 6BR in a 10.5-lb bag gun is that any time you go to more powder and heavier bullets you end up with more recoil and more "jumpy" movement on the bags. Recoil and jump can harm accuracy, so thus far the 6BR-fast twist option has not been attractive for short-range benchrest.

Looking at the conditions in Phoenix and the measured groups at 200 yards, I predict, within a few years, someone shooting a 6BR or Dasher,or maybe even a 6XC) with heavy bullets will manage a Top Five finish in a 200-yard stage of a short-range BR match.,This presumes that someone will actually have the moxie to try something NEW.)

Does that seem far-fetched? Well consider that a 105gr VLD going 3050 fps will have roughly HALF the wind drift of a 68-grainer moving at 3300 fps. That's a pretty big "head start" out of the gate. In switchy, windy conditions, if the trigger-puller doesn't make perfect wind calls on every shot, the heavier bullet might retain an edge when all is said and done.

10 mph crosswind,90 degree wind drift) at 200 yards
6PPC,68gr bullet, 3300 fps): 4.01"
6 Dasher,105gr bullet, 3050 fps): 2.12"

Still, an 8-twist 6BR/Dasher has not been used successfully in short-range BR competition... to my knowledge. But keep in mind that the 30BR with 110-120 bullets is the dominant cartridge in Benchrest for score competition.,But that's a different game and the larger bullet diameter offers it's own distinct advantage in score shooting.)

At the local club level in "fun shoots", fast-twist 6BRs have actually been pretty competitive at both 100 and 200 yards. At my local club, the record for a 100-yard, 10-bull score shoot was set in 2007 by a 6BR shooting Berger 105s.

Excellent information. This person is a novice. Would you agree that a concise way of providing information would be to say that 6br hits its stride at and beyond 300 but will shoot well at 100-1000, while the PPC is marginally more accurate at 100 than the 6br, and perhaps out to 300? Thoughts?
 
As a total novice, please forgive the naive question. I don't understand why the 6BR is not the ideal cartridge at 100 - 200 yards. The 6PPC is the favorite. Is is because the 6PPC is just more accurate than a 6BR, but can't sustain that out past 300 yards or so? Or is it that the 6BR doesn't stabilize well until out past 300 yards or so, and is behaving somewhat less than ideally at the 100 - 200 yard distance?

All my local ranges are 100 - 200 yard, but like the idea of trying for 600 yard. Seems one can not be in the hunt at both 100/200 and 600 using one cartridge?

I built a 6br, 31" Krieger, 8 twist, 1.25 straight tube, put it on a heavy, 3' bench rest stock with 3" forend and a QD brake from Holland Guns. Recoil is such that my 11 year old granddaughter can shoot it. Incredibly accurate, as long as you set up bags/rest so the almost flat butt stock tracks straight backwards and forwards when fired. Technique really changed my accuracy.

Do read what the Administrator wrote in this thread. Lots of solid information.

- Phil
 
Recoil and jump can harm accuracy, so thus far the 6BR-fast twist option has not been attractive for short-range benchrest.

It is a real eye opener to go from a fast twist rifle with heavies to a slow twist with lighter bullets in the same caliber. The slow twist will almost shoot itself by comparison (at least in the light varmint range of rifle weight).

That fast twist torque really wrecks the groove by comparison.
 
Got my 6BR built with a 1:8 twist barrel after reading the write up on the main page of this site. Intent was for 300-600 yard shooting. Until I had my 6PPC built, I used it in some club shoots for 100 yards and I did really good for score, but no so good for group against 6PPCs.

Bob
 
This is my first benchrest rifle. Been shooting just over a year , about 15 matches, 200 to 330 yards. Those 6 orange dots , are well, I've never shot like that before but I agree , can't hang with the 6ppc in groups.
 
Let me start by saying I am a PPC guy, I shoot it out to 500 yds. But don't let guys talk you out of a BR if that's what you like. Some years ago when I attended the IBS BR school all I had was a 12 twist BR. Up until the last relay the last day I had the small group and the small agg. for the school.. Most everyone had a PPC. I was told later the fellow who shoot very well and edged me out was shooting a PPC and had been shooting group matches for about 4 years, I was brand new. At a club level learn to use and trust your flags, be smarter than the rest, don't fuss about what gun and what gadgets are new and you will do fine. This has worked well for me.
 

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