6mm rem vs 243?

[Changeling]

With the number of 6mm Remington rifles in the field, I simply don't understand Lapua/Norma not making the brass. They make good brass but their business formula seems very stupid.

 

[zebra]

With the number of 6mm Remington rifles in the field, I simply don't understand Lapua/Norma not making the brass. They make good brass but their business formula seems very stupid.

I agree changeling

 

[wapiti25]

Have the brass in your hand before ordering a reamer. 243 and 6mm Rem are very good cartridges, but Laupa only makes 243. 6mm rem has to be made out of other brass

 

[Homerange]

My favorite has always been the 6mm Remington, I've got two of them. If you hand load the 6mm will definitely give you an edge over the 243.

Exactly.
My buddy pushes 105 Bergers @ 3250 for 1 1/4" groups @ 500 yds.
Personally watched him shoot a rabbit @ 820 yds. That's good shooting in anybody's language.

 

[snert]

I had a factory 40X that went a bit over 4000 rounds of 6mm rem before it totally pooped. When it was done it was still an MOA barrel. Put on a hart and off we go again! All with 70 grain Sierra's.

 

[Chalktaw]

I fell in love with my very first 6mm Remington! It was a real tuff cookie to crack at the reloading bench back in those days. Joyce Hornady told me once to get a can of 4320 powder and that was the golden key that unlocked the door for this model 700 Remington BDL in 6mm. I was shooting .290-MOA groups in rain or shine weather. My .243 model 70 was no where near (1.30-MOA) that accurate at 100 yds

 

[P72]

I have 2 .243's and 1 6mm AI. My observations:

All have 1-8 twists and the bullets that I have on hand are the 87 Vmax, 95 Sierra MK tipped, 95 Berger VLD, and 105 AMax.

The best accuracy has been with the 95's. I use 4000 MR (low budget) in the .243 for 87's, 95's, and 105's. For the 6mm AI, H4831 for 87's and 95's and H1000 for the 105's.

I would not consider a short action for a 6mm AI. In my 6mm AI, a long action, 87 VMax bullets will contact the throat of my rifle with more than one caliber depth seating. 105 Amax bullets seated out to contact the throat of my rifle will not fit inside the magazine of my .243 rifles - go long action on the 6mm AI or Remington.

The 1-8 twist shoots 87's, 95's and 105's just fine. Hit probability on pop can size steel at 500 meters is best with the 95's (probably the highest quality bullet on hand) and that is becoming my favorite 6mm bullet. Calm days are rare.

I really can't see that much difference between the .243 and 6mm AI until past 500 meters.

6mm Rem brass (not very abundant) can be easily made by necking down and neck turning 7X57 brass with acceptable first shot accuracy. I use PPU 7X57 brass (more low budget). If I had a common variety 6mm instead of the AI there would be no fireforming (cream of wheat, more low budget). How does it go - for every 4% increase in case capacity 1 % increase in velocity but then there are considerations for brass stretching. I might finish with a 6mm Creedmoor.

 

[Brians356]

I like the 6mm Remington. Just as fast as the 243 Win.

Faster!

Superformance in 6mm Rem is, well, super. Behind a 70-gr TNT, 3800+ fps from a 24-in barrel. That will knock a coyote's d!@& in the dirt. (Same combo in 243 Win - 3650+ fps.)
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[Brians356]

I fell in love with my very first 6mm Remington! It was a real tuff cookie to crack at the reloading bench back in those days. Joyce Hornady told me once to get a can of 4320 powder and that was the golden key

6mm Rem seems to have some quirks. You will notice that Hodgdon have published CFE 223 data for both 243 Win and 243 WSSM, but not for 6mm Rem. And that's not because 6mm Rem is near extinction (FWIW they now omit 243 WSSM from their annual book) but because CFE is dangerously unstable in 6mm Rem (or so I was warned by the chap at Hodgdon who tested it.)
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[Raythemanroe]

Improved .243/SLR with Lapua small hole brass.. Just a thought

Ray

 

[Brians356]

With the number of 6mm Remington rifles in the field, I simply don't understand Lapua/Norma not making the brass. They make good brass but their business formula seems very stupid.

I'm sure they have bean counters who are aware of where the demand lies. How many production rifles have been sold in 6mm Rem over the last 40 years? How many custom 6mm Rems have been built for competition in the modern era? Lapua and Norma are EU companies - how many 6mm Rems were ever sold in Europe?
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[CJ6]

I'm sure they have bean counters who are aware of where the demand lies. How many production rifles have been sold in 6mm Rem over the last 40 years? How many custom 6mm Rems have been built for competition in the modern era? Lapua and Norma are EU companies - how many 6mm Rems were ever sold in Europe?
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About as many as 244 Halgers that have been sold in the US I'd guess.

 

[XBBR Shooter]

Over the years, there has been a lot of talk on the turbulence point, where the shoulder angles will intersect, and the length of the neck. I shot the 6 rem and 243 side by side on dog towns in the 80's and early 90's. The 243's always had their throats shot out faster. We could care less about barrels at that time, we were sitting on p. dog towns 30 miles long and 11 miles wide and they were rarely if ever shot. We shot till we could not see through the scopes, cooled the barrels by running water down the tube, went back to shooting. We carried a 6 gallon bucket full of ammo dedicated for each rifle, and averaged 650-1100 rounds of centerfire per day.

All rifles wore Hart SS barrels, minimum twist, zero freebore. Throat wear with ball powder was about .070 per 1700 rounds in the 243AI and 6 Remington, and more for the 243. This leade growth was in a shooting style where we would dump out a bag of 50 rounds and fire single shot about as fast as you could load and acquire a target, with as many as 12 p.dogs in the scope at a time. We would shoot a rifle till we could not see through the scope from barrel heat, then grab another rifle or cool, depending on the target density.

In the early days, around 1979 we shot the barrels out of 8 rifles on one trip using IMR 4064 in 220 swifts, 22/250's, 243's. The 6 Remingtons were worse for the wear but they were still shooting 5/8" at 200. We concluded then that IMR 4064 while good for accuracy and speed really ate barrels. So, we went to ball powders. New barrels on most rifles for the next trip a month later, after ordering two cases of Win 760.

Strange that the 243 AI's seemed to be easier on barrels than the std 243, we concluded the 40* shoulder angle changed the turbulence point, and the ball powder was also magic in extending the shooting strings till cleaning was needed. The 243 AI's did not foul out till beyond 450 rounds with the 70g nosler going 3850 out of 28"+ barrel lengths. A friend that had never shot dogs before flew out with two new 6 Rem 40X's and a 1000 round for each rifle. We found a new dog town on the slopes of a river and he shot 750 rounds out of a new 6Rem 40x and never cleaned, then the next day did the same for the other, all rounds loaded with 760 and 70g Nosler ballistic tips. He never quit connecting on the dogs, his gun never fouled out.

The 6 Rem is within 150 fps of the 243 AI, both with 26" long barrels.

Maybe this may help with a decision as to which to build, my take would be a 243 AI on a short action, and a 6 Rem AI on a long action as there is 200 fps between the two using 760 in both, 70g Noslers, and 26" barrels.

The problem with the 6 Rem and the 6 AI is the case is just too long for a short action 700 if/when you want to use the magazine and chase the lands as the leade grows. I did continue to shoot IMR 4064 in dedicated sporter coyote rifles in 6 Remington with the 80g Sierra going 3600 into bug holes with Hart 12 Twist barrels, and 3800 in the 6 AI.

No one ever mentions the length of the neck on the 6 Remington and I do believe that the longer neck adds to some barrel life.

The 6 Remington seems to be headed for extinction along with the 7 STW and many others as the brass has not been made for years.

I think the brass problem is temporary, and is the result of the buying frenzy of a few years ago. There is a continuing market for these, along with some others like 222 Mag, and 218 Bee. When the dust settles, both Rem and Winchester will be back to making 6mm Remington brass on a rotating schedule.

 

[Webster]

Going to build one or the other just wanted to see some opinions on both. Thanks

I used a factory Rem 700 BDL 6mm Rem for at least 20 years for GH. It's a barrel burner. I think the caliber is becoming obsolete. Not many manufacturers make it. May be getting hard to find brass. Hard to sell rifle. There will always be 243 Win components available. I had a Rem 700 BDL on the 4th. Barrel I had a Krieger 6BR Norma barrel put on. I love it. Accurate, good barrel life, good speed. I can shoot 58 gr Hornady V Maxes at 3600 fps no pressure. Backed off to 3550 fps my std load. If you want more range get a 12 twist for 80-90 gr bullets. It’s getting expensive for barrel work.

 

[AckleymanII]

With the number of 6mm Remington rifles in the field, I simply don't understand Lapua/Norma not making the brass. They make good brass but their business formula seems very stupid.

For those that have a 6 Remington, try Superperformance with the 70g and 80g bullets, check the manual, you will not believe your eyes in the velocity!

 

[Webster]

Going to build one or the other just wanted to see some opinions on both. Thanks

You said your going to build a rifle. If your going to get a custom barrel I would choose a 6BRX over a 6mm or 243. 6mm and 6 BR , 6BRX and 6 Dasher use the standard bolt face diameter as the 6mm Rem. I shot a 6mm for many years. Now have a 6BR 14 twist on my 6mm Rem action and I love it. Great accuracy, good barrel life, good speed. 6 BRX just load and fire for case forming. Fire forming is accurate enough for hunting. Without looking it up you should get about 3800 fps with a 58 gr bullet. If you shoot bullets 70 gr and under get zero freebore. If you shoot heavier bullets you can see what kind of speed you will get by looking at 6 Dasher data in the manuals. I'll take the BRXs accuracy any day over something that shoots a little faster.

 

[370bc]

You said your going to build a rifle. If your going to get a custom barrel I would choose a 6BRX over a 6mm or 243. 6mm and 6 BR , 6BRX and 6 Dasher use the standard bolt face diameter as the 6mm Rem. I shot a 6mm for many years. Now have a 6BR 14 twist on my 6mm Rem action and I love it. Great accuracy, good barrel life, good speed. 6 BRX just load and fire for case forming. Fire forming is accurate enough for hunting. Without looking it up you should get about 3800 fps with a 58 gr bullet. If you shoot bullets 70 gr and under get zero freebore. If you shoot heavier bullets you can see what kind of speed you will get by looking at 6 Dasher data in the manuals. I'll take the BRXs accuracy any day over something that shoots a little faster.

Isn't the saying of 'inherent accuracy' just a reloading table myth? If a person were to spend thousands for dollars on the most inaccurate cartridge, they could still produce a rifle that shot one hole groups with proper hand loading methods with the availability of state of the art components.
Less recoil, proper fit, better optics, all play a part. I have seen marlin 30-30's at the range that cloverleafed at 50 yards with standard optic. Just wanting to confirm the term 'inherent accuracy'. Not wanting to ruffle any feathers here.

 

[Webster]

Isn't the saying of 'inherent accuracy' just a reloading table myth? If a person were to spend thousands for dollars on the most inaccurate cartridge, they could still produce a rifle that shot one hole groups with proper hand loading methods with the availability of state of the art components.
Less recoil, proper fit, better optics, all play a part. I have seen marlin 30-30's at the range that cloverleafed at 50 yards with standard optic. Just wanting to confirm the term 'inherent accuracy'. Not wanting to ruffle any feathers here.

I understand what you are saying but there must be something to inherent accuracy. There were about 320 participants at the 2016 Super Shoot, I believe they all shot 6PPC except one person. Small cartridges like the 222 that were popular in major short range matches are never used any more, there must be a reason. I don't think cartridges like a 223 or 222 mag or whatever will shoot a 25 shot aggregate that measures 0.250. If any small cartridge with the best equipment and good hand loads would shoot competitive groups we would see more cartridge types at short range comp. The serious competitors know what works. There is a much bigger bigger choice of cartridges used at long distance. Looks like we will start a long pissing match. My rifle is a factory 1968 Rem 700 BDL Varmint model. It has a Kreiger 14 twist 6BR Norma barrel on it, glass bedded with a 45 YO Unertl scope on it. I cannot shoot the rifle to it's potential. Groups under 0.350" are the norm. I have shot a few groups in the ones.

 

[Raythemanroe]

A clover leaf group isn't inherent accuracy..

Ray

 

[CJ6]

inherent accuracy..

Ray

It makes a great sales pitch though.....Put those words in front of caliber XXX and sales will go through the roof...I do find however that some cartridges are easier to find the correct load easier than others, so does that make them "inherently accurate" or just easier to load for ?????