6mm BR Issue

[INTJ]

I’ve shot the Berger 108’s and they didn’t shoot as well as the 109’s. Actually, the new Hornady 110 gr. A-tip bullet has been the most consistent bullet for accuracy. I tried the 115gr. DTAC and at 100 yds the verticals were no good. I’m not sure what bullets one would consider to be “benchrest” bullets as I know a number of benchrest shooters that use Berger bullets.

There are two different Berger 108s. The 2018 NBRSA 1000 yd Champ used the 108 BT Target. I don't know any LR BR shooters that have got the 109s to work, but I know some that haven't. That said, there are always exceptions......

 

[INTJ]

I have found this to be true from years way back in the mid-90's to date it seems to be the case for me as well.

I guess we all have different experiences. I have not found that to be true. I don't find it any harder to be stable and consistent with five shot groups as it is with three. Three shots is often very deceptive. I have more than once seen three shots go into the same hole and four and five open up the group. That just means tuning isn't done, and subsequent load development has eliminated those larger groups.

 

[Bill Norris]

I guess we all have different experiences. I have not found that to be true. I don't find it any harder to be stable and consistent with five shot groups as it is with three. Three shots is often very deceptive. I have more than once seen three shots go into the same hole and four and five open up the group. That just means tuning isn't done, and subsequent load development has eliminated those larger groups.

I guess I should have said after a good load has proven to shoot well but I agree sometimes in development flyers will be present.

 

[TAJ45]

Try this: batteryize the stock ( ). Ease it to the stop then back it off a slight skoshe. A very savvy br guy gave me this tip.

 

[expiper]

This a recent pic of a Ladder test with H4895 and Berger 109 gr. Hybrid Target bullets. These were seated 0.012 into the lands. Both are 5 shot groups (I like to shoot 5 shots of the same load when ladder testing). As you can see, there’s always a flyer when I hit a good node.

This a recent pic of a Ladder test with H4895 and Berger 109 gr. Hybrid Target bullets. These were seated 0.012 into the lands. Both are 5 shot groups (I like to shoot 5 shots of the same load when ladder testing). As you can see, there’s always a flyer when I hit a good node.

I took another look at this thread this am. and noticed something that you did not tell us,,,you said you worked a load up but didnt tell us what that load was ,,,I noticed on your target pic. that it was 28.5 gr of H-4895,,,,I shoot 29.5 of it with great result,,,you may be too light on the powder charge and have all that vertical because of it,,,a full grain of charge wt. when only using ~30gr /of powder is a lot,,,read your primers or let us take a look at them ,,,I am "guessing" (because it is tuff to solve a problem at the keyboard,,) you need to go up a cupla # on your powder !!!!...please let us know what works,,,several good shooters have tried to help,,,Roger

 

[JSH]

I am also working with a 6BR and have had some small issues. They are being addressed, one thing at a time.
I have some spare time at the moment, so a question to throw out to those watching.
A no turn neck chamber, would a skim cut to knock any high spots off hurt anything. I have seen and read where some folks turn until about half the neck wall thickness is cleaned up. Results were usually fairly positive.

 

[Bill Norris]

I am also working with a 6BR and have had some small issues. They are being addressed, one thing at a time.
I have some spare time at the moment, so a question to throw out to those watching.
A no turn neck chamber, would a skim cut to knock any high spots off hurt anything. I have seen and read where some folks turn until about half the neck wall thickness is cleaned up. Results were usually fairly positive.

That's what I did with Lapua brass with my 6BR. Don't know if it helped but I don't think it hurt a thing.

 

[SST2500]

Guys, I really appreciate all the information and help. I see a number of things that I can change to possibly improve these groups. First, I’m shooting off an RCBS Rock BR with a round bag (stock has a round forend) with a Protector rear ear bag. I have used Varget with both the 110gr. Hornady A-tip and the 109gr. Berger (30.3gr best load) and still had issues with flyers. I very well may need to go up on the H4895 powder load but I am getting a stiff bolt lift with the 28.5 gr. load ( I also get a stiff bolt lift with the Varget load as well). The primers don’t appear to be cratering or flattening to any extent that would scare me (CCI 450 primers). This is a standard no turn neck chamber but I did turn the brass down to 0.0125 necks after the first firing and trimming. Chasing the perfect group is fun but can be frustrating. I really appreciate all of the suggestions. I’m sure all of them will help. I’m in the process of working with a buddy that does machine work on creating a Delrin 3”x1/2” flat fore end to fit to the stock and change my front bag out for a square flat bottom bag. We are still working on the design. Will let you know what we come up with.

 

[Lone Hunter]

Guys, I really appreciate all the information and help. I see a number of things that I can change to possibly improve these groups. First, I’m shooting off an RCBS Rock BR with a round bag (stock has a round forend) with a Protector rear ear bag. I have used Varget with both the 110gr. Hornady A-tip and the 109gr. Berger (30.3gr best load) and still had issues with flyers. I very well may need to go up on the H4895 powder load but I am getting a stiff bolt lift with the 28.5 gr. load ( I also get a stiff bolt lift with the Varget load as well). The primers don’t appear to be cratering or flattening to any extent that would scare me (CCI 450 primers). This is a standard no turn neck chamber but I did turn the brass down to 0.0125 necks after the first firing and trimming. Chasing the perfect group is fun but can be frustrating. I really appreciate all of the suggestions. I’m sure all of them will help. I’m in the process of working with a buddy that does machine work on creating a Delrin 3”x1/2” flat fore end to fit to the stock and change my front bag out for a square flat bottom bag. We are still working on the design. Will let you know what we come up with.

You might want to try this for the round forearm. I bought one and it works really good.

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[SST2500]

I’ve seen that fore end adapter. My machinist buddy and I are in the process of milling a Delrin 3”x1/2”x6” flat fore end, then the plan is to build a mold box around the stock fore end and pour a plastic mold that exactly fits the stock. Once thats done, we plan on attaching the molded base to the stock with some threaded inserts in the stock, then attach the Delrin to the plastic. We’ll see how it all works.

 

[LHSmith]

I have loads worked up with Varget and H4895 which will both shoot groups in the 2’s. My problem is that every load that will shoot this well will put 4 rounds into a 0.2” or 0.25” group and then throw one round out that increases the group to 0.40 or 0.50. It’s never the same shot but it seems to be consistent at throwing one round out of the group.

So you apparently have a re-stocked, re-barrelled Remington untrued 700 that will shoot an average 5 shot group aggregate of under 1/2". This accuracy is normal for what you have. I have been there and done that with factory 700's for close to 50 years. Then I decided to have one trued and rebarreled with a premium barrel- the groups shrank (on occasion) but I still got fliers. Then my mentor smith loaned me his windflags and after I learned how to read them- the fliers became fewer. I started shooting competition, bought custom actioned benchrest rifles, learned to look for mirage and when to shoot and did fairly well. Now I look back on all those pre-competition years that I tried to put them all though the same damn hole with equipment and skills that were not conducive to my goals. A lot of components and time wasted on trying to achieve the impossible and was not learning anything. Sure every once in a while I would shoot a group that was very small....only to load up some more rounds and shoot mediocre the next outing.
Someone on here a while back offered this advice: "shooting without flags is just plinking".
Yes, keep eliminating the variables- bed the recoil lug, improve the fore end rest, but unless you attempt to control the conditions (i.e. read the wind so you know when to shoot) you just don't know if these are making improvements. The wind can blow them into group as easy as it can blow them out.

 

[LCazador]

Guys, I really appreciate all the information and help. I see a number of things that I can change to possibly improve these groups. First, I’m shooting off an RCBS Rock BR with a round bag (stock has a round forend) with a Protector rear ear bag. I have used Varget with both the 110gr. Hornady A-tip and the 109gr. Berger (30.3gr best load) and still had issues with flyers. I very well may need to go up on the H4895 powder load but I am getting a stiff bolt lift with the 28.5 gr. load ( I also get a stiff bolt lift with the Varget load as well). The primers don’t appear to be cratering or flattening to any extent that would scare me (CCI 450 primers). This is a standard no turn neck chamber but I did turn the brass down to 0.0125 necks after the first firing and trimming. Chasing the perfect group is fun but can be frustrating. I really appreciate all of the suggestions. I’m sure all of them will help. I’m in the process of working with a buddy that does machine work on creating a Delrin 3”x1/2” flat fore end to fit to the stock and change my front bag out for a square flat bottom bag. We are still working on the design. Will let you know what we come up with.

If you have stiff bolt lift you're already at the top end with those two powders. Investigate a slower powder option and work on your shooting technique. Don't judge pressure by primer flatness or cratering. Use a micrometer that reads to .0001" and measure head diameter expansion.

 

[SST2500]

I have two rifles built on blueprinted Remington actions (6.5 Creedmoor with Criterion barrel and a 6mm TCU with a Preferred barrel). Both shoot groups in the 2’s & 3’s cosistently. When I purchased this latest action, I contacted a gunsmith about blueprinting the action and was told that the newer RR Remington actions don’t really need blueprinting as they are very true from the factory. I guess I could pull the barrel on this one and my take it to my buddies shop and rig a receiver jig to check it in the lathe. Some of the accuracy issues could be coming from the receiver ??? This is definitely not a custom benchrest rifle. This is a $375 action with a $320 barrel with a $200 Jewel trigger in a $300 stock. It’s a $1200 rifle with a $1400 Nightforce scope. I enjoy tinkering with these setups but I’m absolutely sure LHSmith is right about purchasing high dollar equipment to get better group consistency and using wind flags on the range. I live in West Texas and we deal with the wind out here almost every day. Its just part of shooting in our neck of the woods. I guess my next rifle needs to be a Custom Built Benchrest gun if I’m ever going to shoot those 2” groups at 600 yards. Good thing coyotes are a lot bigger than 2“, lol. Thanks guys for all the tips.

 

[divingin]

Im not an expert shooter, in fact im pretty lousy but those barrels chambered in 6br will shoot.

I can shoot a lot worse than that...

 

[DocDoc]

SST2500
Could poor primary extraction be part of the problem? Remington is known for that and it can look like high pressure.

 

[STOMP442]

I have never heard of a good bedding job hurting accuracy. First thing I do on every rifle, factory or custom built, is a bedding job. I try to eliminate as many things possible that can effect down range performance. There are enough things to worry about on the reloading side of things to wonder if bedding or lack there of may be an issue.

 

[KentuckyFisherman]

First, I’m shooting off an RCBS Rock BR with a round bag (stock has a round forend) with a Protector rear ear bag.

A few posts down you describe the components in the rifle and it's a $1,200 rifle with a $1,400 NF scope, good components as best I can see. So, you're shooting a decent modified-class rifle off an RCBS Rock BR rest and with a round forearm? If you want benchrest groups, I'd be upgrading the rest and looking for a benchrest-style stock with a flat forearm. Also, if you're having to muscle the bolt open after shots, that totally upsets your bench setup every time you have to do that. Been there, and it's ugly.

 

[Henryrifle]

I really relate to this thread and I really appreciate many of the comments posted here but, the ones by @LHSmith ring true with me.

Have been shooting F-Class (F-T/R) for the past three years and at the same time the sport/hobby can be very rewarding incredibly frustrating.

I like to shoot for fun too and we all appreciate a very small group. I think you not only need great equipment to consistently shoot small but you also need meticulous brass and cartridge preparation. If that weren't enough some unknown ratio of skill and luck are required too.

There are guys who can just flat out shoot. I have met them and shot with and against them. I am not one of them. If you are one of them I know you are thinking that I am just wrong about what I wrote above. I know that not everyone or maybe no-one will agree with the above but there are times when I know I did EVERYTHING right and still shot a .6.

Today was one of those days. I just know [hope] tomorrow will be better! It's what makes this fun right?

Henryrifle

 

[BoydAllen]

Guys. I have a 6mm BR that currently has 220 rounds thru it. I have worked up loads with both the 110gr. Hornady A-Tip and the Berger 109 gr. Hybrid Target. I’m using Lapua brass with the necks turned to 0.125 which cleaned up about 85% of the necks. I have loads worked up with Varget and H4895 which will both shoot groups in the 2’s. My problem is that every load that will shoot this well will put 4 rounds into a 0.2” or 0.25” group and then throw one round out that increases the group to 0.40 or 0.50. It’s never the same shot but it seems to be consistent at throwing one round out of the group. It could just be my shooting, lol, but even a blind hog finds an acorn on occasion so I believe its an ammo or rifle issue. The rifle is a Rem 700 action with a Preferred Remage barrel in a laminated stock that has been pillar bedded. I haven’t bedded the recoil lug yet but I just don’t think that’s going to cure these flyers. I checked the Varget load and it was running an SD of 6 so I don’t think it‘s a powder problem. Any suggestions on what to try next to remove these flyers would be appreciated.

According to your description your rifle has not been bedded.....period. I am surprised that you have not noticed with all of the pictures of good bedding jobs that are on the internet that NO ONE omits the lug. On that same subject, you cannot fully evaluate the quality of a bedding job just by eye. I don't know if it is still available, but Alex Wheeler once made a video on how he checks bedding with a dial indicator. I first heard of this, years back, from something that Mike Bryant wrote on a forum. It really caught my attention. IMO working on loads without perfect bedding is a waste of time, barrel, and components. Bedding can make a huge difference, and there is no way around it.

 

[Tommie]

I had a flier issue that drove me nuts. Finally figured out that the bolt handle was contacting the stock. Added clearance and problem solved. Not saying this is the issue with your rifle but it’s worth a look-see.