Yeah ratbuster, my newest burn rate chart shows it to be a tic faster than H4831sc. Joe either uses H1000 or Vit N165, but mostly H1000.
6CM testing Results
- Thread starter joesr
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Yeah ratbuster, my newest burn rate chart shows it to be a tic faster than H4831sc. Joe either uses H1000 or Vit N165, but mostly H1000.
urbanrifleman
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Not in my loads testing (based on John Whidden 243 loads). It is several grains slower. Like 3-4 grains. The popular load with the 105 with the 243 and H1000 is 46 grains. The N160 load is about 45 grains. IMR 4350 is 40 to 40.5.
That is from load workups. The data on the Internet in regards to N160 is suspect at best. The load data from Vit is way off...
People seem to be confusing two separate properties here - burn speed and whether a powder burns 'hot' or 'cool'. It is quite feasible to combine slow initial burning with a very high specific energy level, or have a faster burning product but with a lower energy rating.
H1000 and Viht N165 both have a reputation for being cool burning and their nominal specific energy values support that - 3,630 and 3,500 Kj / Kg respectively. N165 is the coolest burning handloader's powder by a good margin in fact on that basis. N160 is also 'cool', rated at 3,620. H4831 is in the next bracket up at 3,870 Kj / Kg - a 200-300 step having a major effect in this particular metric. Alliant Re17 is higher yet at nearly 4,000 and the very slow burning Viht N570 is getting on that way too at 3,950 thanks to its infused nitroglycerin content.
So far as N160's burn rate goes, it is apparently one of these difficult to categorise grades whose actual 'effective' burning rate varies depending on the cartridge it is being employed in. It has nominally been shown akin to IMR-4831 in burning rate charts for as long as I've used it which will be for over 30 years now. (It appeared alongside N140 in the UK sometime in the early 1980s long before any Viht powder was imported into the US.) In some cartridges its utility does appear close to IMR-4831; in others more like the 4350s. However, it will generally produce lower MVs than the 4831s as it contains less energy for any given charge weight and it rarely allows the use of a heavier charge than either version before pressure signs appear. For many cartridges where American users would consider either 4831 version first but might consider the slower more tolerant Hodgdon version of 4350 as an alternative, I often skip N160 and go to N165 as long as the case will hold a heavy enough charge of it. So John Whidden's choice of N160 has always intrigued me a tad as N165 looks a better option on the face of it - but as always what actually works is much more important than what should do.
This is one of a handful of powders too where QuickLOAD's data appear to be inaccurate. I've found the program to serially overestimate the fill-ratio and to underestimate pressures and MVs to a worryingly significant degree. In a first go with it in any new cartridge, I therefore restrict the calculated pressure to 5,000 psi below where I'd want to be at the top end of my test batches - say around 53,000 psi in QL for a cartridge like 260 Rem where I'm looking for something in the high 50,000s and also check published loading manual maximum charges where the powder is listed - which sadly is rarely in the latest editions of most manuals where Viht powders seem to have simply disappeared. The one very valuable exception to this is Lyman whose recently published 50th edition has an excellent spread of Viht choices for many cartridges.
H1000 and Viht N165 both have a reputation for being cool burning and their nominal specific energy values support that - 3,630 and 3,500 Kj / Kg respectively. N165 is the coolest burning handloader's powder by a good margin in fact on that basis. N160 is also 'cool', rated at 3,620. H4831 is in the next bracket up at 3,870 Kj / Kg - a 200-300 step having a major effect in this particular metric. Alliant Re17 is higher yet at nearly 4,000 and the very slow burning Viht N570 is getting on that way too at 3,950 thanks to its infused nitroglycerin content.
So far as N160's burn rate goes, it is apparently one of these difficult to categorise grades whose actual 'effective' burning rate varies depending on the cartridge it is being employed in. It has nominally been shown akin to IMR-4831 in burning rate charts for as long as I've used it which will be for over 30 years now. (It appeared alongside N140 in the UK sometime in the early 1980s long before any Viht powder was imported into the US.) In some cartridges its utility does appear close to IMR-4831; in others more like the 4350s. However, it will generally produce lower MVs than the 4831s as it contains less energy for any given charge weight and it rarely allows the use of a heavier charge than either version before pressure signs appear. For many cartridges where American users would consider either 4831 version first but might consider the slower more tolerant Hodgdon version of 4350 as an alternative, I often skip N160 and go to N165 as long as the case will hold a heavy enough charge of it. So John Whidden's choice of N160 has always intrigued me a tad as N165 looks a better option on the face of it - but as always what actually works is much more important than what should do.
This is one of a handful of powders too where QuickLOAD's data appear to be inaccurate. I've found the program to serially overestimate the fill-ratio and to underestimate pressures and MVs to a worryingly significant degree. In a first go with it in any new cartridge, I therefore restrict the calculated pressure to 5,000 psi below where I'd want to be at the top end of my test batches - say around 53,000 psi in QL for a cartridge like 260 Rem where I'm looking for something in the high 50,000s and also check published loading manual maximum charges where the powder is listed - which sadly is rarely in the latest editions of most manuals where Viht powders seem to have simply disappeared. The one very valuable exception to this is Lyman whose recently published 50th edition has an excellent spread of Viht choices for many cartridges.
urbanrifleman
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Thank you for providing those numbers.
See? I told yall... haha N160 burns cooler than H1000.
Shoots better too in the 243. For me at least.
As far as burn speed, I find that you can nearly interchange load data for 4831 and N160. They must be very close.
Yes, they are close in the 243 Win at any rate.
urbanrifleman
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Great post!!! thank you so much!!!
I understand the heat numbers about how hot or cool the powder is. My point was that it is faster which we all know what faster powders do. Plus I don't know anything like Laurie does, but the compositions of the powers have to be different. John and I discussed the N160 powder, his load, his life of accuracy and barrel life.
I have another 6CM (Competition Match) waiting to be screwed on an action here in the near future. I will pull this one at 4000 rounds. I'm shooting a .243 right now with H1000, over 1100 rounds in it. Started at 3150 fps with a 105. Now the speed of the barrel is at 3110 fps. This barrel is shooting groups as good now has it did when I developed the load. I shoot this in PRS shoots. I expect barrel life to go to about 3000. It definitely is no 6CM, but none the less it's a good shooter.
Now back to the 6CM Competition Match, which it was called before there was a Creedmoor.
urbanrifleman
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Exhuming this thread.. Forgive me if that ticks anyone off. That said, I have a couple questions.
I have had a 6 Comp Match for a few years now. My example is a Surgeon 591 action with a Bartlein 5R, 8 twist finished at 26 inches By Chad @ LRI. At this stage, I probably have about 1100 rounds through it. It shoots decent, but it has never been spectacular. It is/was my first 6 comp match example, and I have tried everything I can think of or find online to make it shoot, including Chad Dixon's method of creating a false shoulder for the (fireforming) stage of creating 6CM brass.
What I end up with, is a case that will hold 48.5 grains of H1000, with a little crunching while seating. I have tried jumping the loads .025, .030 and jamming them with no significant increase in accuracy. Every trip to the range is another exercise in futility as I try everything I have read or been told to make this thing shoot amazing, and I am just not there with it. At this point, it has sort of become a bummer to take the thing to the range, because I know it's just going to be more work with me chasing my tail around in circles. I have tried Win and Lapua brass, as I requested that it be reamed to allow for Lapua, but nothing seems to work for me.
When I engaged LRI to build it, I also hoarded as many of the Berger 105 Hybrid's as I could get my hands on, so I have a LOT of them, as I was expecting this thing to be the 1000 yard Panacea for me, but it never made it.
At this point, I am seriously considering throwing in the towel on 6 Comp Match and going with something a little more traditional, that doesn't require as many interim steps to make it work, like say a 6.5 Creed, where all I have to do is buy brass, bullets and powder to get something I can shoot, enjoy and not have to work so hard at.
Just the prep alone, makes the 6 Comp match a bit of a struggle, particularly when after all of that work, the thing is about as accurate as my .223 Ackley running Berger 80 grain VLD's through it. The 223 Ackley is a tack driver all the way out to 600 for me, and on a calm day, I can ring the 10" steel at 1000 with stunning regularity. Point being, I expected a LOT more from this 6 Comp Match than my example has delivered, and I am so invested in bullets, powder and tooling that I really want it to work, but I wonder if I am just shoveling crap against the tide at this point.
Anyone still shooting 6 Comp Match competitively?
I have had a 6 Comp Match for a few years now. My example is a Surgeon 591 action with a Bartlein 5R, 8 twist finished at 26 inches By Chad @ LRI. At this stage, I probably have about 1100 rounds through it. It shoots decent, but it has never been spectacular. It is/was my first 6 comp match example, and I have tried everything I can think of or find online to make it shoot, including Chad Dixon's method of creating a false shoulder for the (fireforming) stage of creating 6CM brass.
What I end up with, is a case that will hold 48.5 grains of H1000, with a little crunching while seating. I have tried jumping the loads .025, .030 and jamming them with no significant increase in accuracy. Every trip to the range is another exercise in futility as I try everything I have read or been told to make this thing shoot amazing, and I am just not there with it. At this point, it has sort of become a bummer to take the thing to the range, because I know it's just going to be more work with me chasing my tail around in circles. I have tried Win and Lapua brass, as I requested that it be reamed to allow for Lapua, but nothing seems to work for me.
When I engaged LRI to build it, I also hoarded as many of the Berger 105 Hybrid's as I could get my hands on, so I have a LOT of them, as I was expecting this thing to be the 1000 yard Panacea for me, but it never made it.
At this point, I am seriously considering throwing in the towel on 6 Comp Match and going with something a little more traditional, that doesn't require as many interim steps to make it work, like say a 6.5 Creed, where all I have to do is buy brass, bullets and powder to get something I can shoot, enjoy and not have to work so hard at.
Just the prep alone, makes the 6 Comp match a bit of a struggle, particularly when after all of that work, the thing is about as accurate as my .223 Ackley running Berger 80 grain VLD's through it. The 223 Ackley is a tack driver all the way out to 600 for me, and on a calm day, I can ring the 10" steel at 1000 with stunning regularity. Point being, I expected a LOT more from this 6 Comp Match than my example has delivered, and I am so invested in bullets, powder and tooling that I really want it to work, but I wonder if I am just shoveling crap against the tide at this point.
Anyone still shooting 6 Comp Match competitively?
Ranger188
Silver $$ Contributor
I don't know the barrel life of the 6 Comp. Do you want to keep dicking with it, if it's near death?
You never did say if you tried different powders or bullets.
No matter what one person tells you, some barrel like something different.
Try the 105's and a different powder.
You never did say if you tried different powders or bullets.
No matter what one person tells you, some barrel like something different.
Try the 105's and a different powder.
Hoser
Gold $$ Contributor
I am still shooting my 6CM. I havent had a reason to change. I have a shot action Accuracy International AX and a Long action PSR with 6CM barrels. The short action has a Kreiger and the long action has Bartliens. Fritz at Black Canyon rifles (formerly of Mile High Shooting) did the chambering.
I never had good luck with the Berger 105s so I went back to DTACs. I have 1,000 of the old style DTAC bullets left and then I have 2,000 of the good rebated boat tail, not the current version. When I run out of these, I will most likely try Sierra 107s or Barnes 112s.
I have never tried anything other than H-1000.
Lots of guys are shooting 6s based off the 6BR. But they are finicky assholes to make feed from a magazine and case prep can be a pain depending on what you pick.
I never had good luck with the Berger 105s so I went back to DTACs. I have 1,000 of the old style DTAC bullets left and then I have 2,000 of the good rebated boat tail, not the current version. When I run out of these, I will most likely try Sierra 107s or Barnes 112s.
I have never tried anything other than H-1000.
Lots of guys are shooting 6s based off the 6BR. But they are finicky assholes to make feed from a magazine and case prep can be a pain depending on what you pick.
I've been shooting one since '07. I have 100 rounds down my new barrel, it's going to be a shooter. I have the second 100 ready to shoot hopefully out to 1000 or further on Friday. I fire form my brass in my first barrel, which still shoots surprisingly well.
I think you should read Joe Hendricks writings on here. I can't find his earliest post on the Comp Match which I believe are dated late 05 or 06. To me it's a long read, but worth it. I've had nothing but outstanding accuracy and extended barrel life with my barrels. I have enough DTAC's to go thru the 2 barrels I have on actions.
By the way, take note...3/4" groups at 200 yards shooting irons. I do know some of his testing has given him 1/2" groups at that distance, with irons. This comes straight from him. My best 10 shot group was with my 30" Krieger, 2" at 800 yards, Nightforce br scope.
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@Ranger188
Yes I have tried different bullets, I have a pretty good stash of the Sierra 107 MK's and have gone back and forth between them and the 105's, but always using H1000. I load them (the 107's) to 2.810 OAL (2.225 to the ogive). When I shot it last, I was getting 3050 FPS with 48 grains of H1000 and an SD of 10. That was a really nice load as far as the chrono was concerned, but I could not group worth shit.
That same afternoon I shot .308 and .223 (bolt gun) and was making single ragged holes with 5 shots groups on both of those rifles at 100 yards, so I know my head was in the right space. I could not however, make those same (single) ragged holes with the 6 comp match. As a side note, on that same day (according to my notes) I shot 49 grains of H1000 behind the 105 Bergers and got 3067, 3058, 3058, 3054 and 3052 FPS in a 5 shot string on the chrono, which is an SD of 6, so I also know my reload-fu is on point as well. Again, this is an 8 twist barrel, so it may just be that my rifle isn't stabilizing the 105's at that speed? I just don't know.
I don't claim to be anywhere near a competitive shooter. I love to shoot and I love to challenge myself, and I do a pretty good job when the stars align and the cows come home, so I think what I may do is start dropping the charge a bit at a time and see if these things like going a little slower in my rifle.
To answer your question regarding barrel life, I am right at 1100 round count now, and have been running H100 the entire time. So consistent with what has been discussed in this thread from day 1, I should be able to expect at least 3000 rounds out of this barrel using the combo I am, so I have no reason to believe that the barrel is cooked yet.
Yeah man, it seems like mine is a finicky asshole as well, and I may just end up chalking this one up to a bad example. I am not yet at the point where I consider myself an adequate reader of wind, and it may just be that I need to shoot a heavier round to give me that extra "edge" out beyond 8 or 900 yards in anything other than reasonably calm conditions, which is where I really wanted the 6CM to shine for me. No matter what I do, I need to find a round that can use H1000 as I am heavily invested in that stuff as well. Im thinking 6.5 or even a 7mm of some sorts.
Ranger188
Silver $$ Contributor
I don't care if your the best reloader on the planet, if the combination doesn't do what you want it to do,
try another powder. What do you have to lose......
What's the definition of insanity, doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.
I find experimenting half the fun on developing a accurate load, frustrating at times, but rewarding
when you get it right.
try another powder. What do you have to lose......
What's the definition of insanity, doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.
I find experimenting half the fun on developing a accurate load, frustrating at times, but rewarding
when you get it right.
You could go 6mm creedmoor and get quality brass easily. It would let you stick with your 105s, too.
H1000 and RL26 will work in the 6 creedmoor too.
Hoser
Gold $$ Contributor
Barrel life on the 6 Creed isnt very good. Really bad compared to the CM.
how do you know this?
Which friend if yours has tested the two with similar powders and charge weights?
EDIT: only pointing this out because people are generally NOT using H1000 in 6cm and so comparing barrel life with different powders is not a reasonable comparison.
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Hoser
Gold $$ Contributor
H-1000 does not work well in the 6 Creed. It works excellent in 6 Comp Match. If I want really high velocities and pressure I can switch to a faster burning powder.
Comparing them when shooting the same bullets at the same velocities is more than fair. It takes me more powder, but less pressure to get to velocity than the 6 Creed with the same bullet.
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