6CM testing Results
- Thread starter joesr
- Start date
Primers backing out on virgin Hornady brass
Hi fellas.
I just recently got my 6CM together and I am having some odd issues that I wanted to air out here and hopefully get some advice for.
The rifle:
Surgeon 591R
Bartlein Remington Varmint profile, 8 twist, finished at 26", 11* target crown, no brake
In my quest for Winchester brass, I have come up blank, and have for months now, so I was forced to buy Hornady brass, as that was basically all I could find available.
I was fortunate enough to have Joe return my phone call and give me some load data for fire forming (among other good info), and he indicated I should load up the 105 Hybrids @ .010 jammed, with 48 grains of H-1000 for fire forming and then bump that up to 49 grains of H-1000 with an .040 jump once I had my brass formed. He indicated that should be my go to load and get me close to 3200 fps with my set up.
On the first day out shooting this jewel, I experienced amazing accuracy while fire forming, but nearly every piece of brass came out of the gun with the primer sticking half way out of the primer pocket. No other signs of pressure were present. No hard bolt lift, and the primers did not look overly flattened. This was virgin brass before I started.
To be clear, the load data was as follows: 48.0 gr H-1000, Berger 105 Hybrid, Tula KVB-762 Primers.
Cartridge Data: 2.217" to Ogive 2.817" OAL (.010 Jammed)
The average speed was 2922 FPS over 10 rounds. It was 54.5*f , 29.03 in/hg and I was at 1050 ft ASL.
I came home from that range trip, cleaned, sized and built some cartridges using Federal 210M primers and 49.0 grains of H-1000 thinking that perhaps the Tula primers were an issue, even though I have loaded thousands of them in 308 with ZERO issue, and as good or better than 210M ES/SD results on average. I also reamed the case mouths, and trimmed to length per Joe's recommendation using the Forster .243 neck reamer BEFORE I sized the brass.
The new cartridge data was as follows: 49.0 grains H-1000, Berger Hybrid, Fed 210M Primers. 2.181 to Ogive, 2.791 OAL (.040 jump)
As a side note, I also loaded up 20 rounds using the exact same data but with CCI BR2 primers as a test.
At the range, the (accuracy) results were amazing. I netted an additional 70 FPS, but was well short of the 3200 FPS I was expecting to see based on the conversation I had with Joe, but after my fire forming results, I knew I was not going to get anywhere near 3200 fps with this rifle. The real problem is that the primers were again backed out of the pockets, but not nearly as far, and not every piece of brass was affected this time. I would say about 2/3 of the total shots fired, exhibited proud primers, and they were sticking out of the pocket about .020 at the most.
Atmospheric data for the day was: 68.9*F , 29.1 in/hg and the same 1050 ft ASL.
Anyway, that is as clear as I can be fellas. I will say that I called Hornady and have a box of the brass that I purchased heading their way now, along with 5 pieces of my once fired brass for them to look at. It will take weeks before I get an answer from them, so I figured I would ask you guys what you thought.... Please let me know...
Respectfully,
Hi fellas.
I just recently got my 6CM together and I am having some odd issues that I wanted to air out here and hopefully get some advice for.
The rifle:
Surgeon 591R
Bartlein Remington Varmint profile, 8 twist, finished at 26", 11* target crown, no brake
In my quest for Winchester brass, I have come up blank, and have for months now, so I was forced to buy Hornady brass, as that was basically all I could find available.
I was fortunate enough to have Joe return my phone call and give me some load data for fire forming (among other good info), and he indicated I should load up the 105 Hybrids @ .010 jammed, with 48 grains of H-1000 for fire forming and then bump that up to 49 grains of H-1000 with an .040 jump once I had my brass formed. He indicated that should be my go to load and get me close to 3200 fps with my set up.
On the first day out shooting this jewel, I experienced amazing accuracy while fire forming, but nearly every piece of brass came out of the gun with the primer sticking half way out of the primer pocket. No other signs of pressure were present. No hard bolt lift, and the primers did not look overly flattened. This was virgin brass before I started.
To be clear, the load data was as follows: 48.0 gr H-1000, Berger 105 Hybrid, Tula KVB-762 Primers.
Cartridge Data: 2.217" to Ogive 2.817" OAL (.010 Jammed)
The average speed was 2922 FPS over 10 rounds. It was 54.5*f , 29.03 in/hg and I was at 1050 ft ASL.
I came home from that range trip, cleaned, sized and built some cartridges using Federal 210M primers and 49.0 grains of H-1000 thinking that perhaps the Tula primers were an issue, even though I have loaded thousands of them in 308 with ZERO issue, and as good or better than 210M ES/SD results on average. I also reamed the case mouths, and trimmed to length per Joe's recommendation using the Forster .243 neck reamer BEFORE I sized the brass.
The new cartridge data was as follows: 49.0 grains H-1000, Berger Hybrid, Fed 210M Primers. 2.181 to Ogive, 2.791 OAL (.040 jump)
As a side note, I also loaded up 20 rounds using the exact same data but with CCI BR2 primers as a test.
At the range, the (accuracy) results were amazing. I netted an additional 70 FPS, but was well short of the 3200 FPS I was expecting to see based on the conversation I had with Joe, but after my fire forming results, I knew I was not going to get anywhere near 3200 fps with this rifle. The real problem is that the primers were again backed out of the pockets, but not nearly as far, and not every piece of brass was affected this time. I would say about 2/3 of the total shots fired, exhibited proud primers, and they were sticking out of the pocket about .020 at the most.
Atmospheric data for the day was: 68.9*F , 29.1 in/hg and the same 1050 ft ASL.
Anyway, that is as clear as I can be fellas. I will say that I called Hornady and have a box of the brass that I purchased heading their way now, along with 5 pieces of my once fired brass for them to look at. It will take weeks before I get an answer from them, so I figured I would ask you guys what you thought.... Please let me know...
Respectfully,
Boogaloo I can not say what is going on but I wont shoot Hornady Brass if you gave it to me. I bought 200 6.5 creedmoore Brass a few years ago and a load I was shooting on the first firing with the Hornady Brass the primers fell out of the back of the case when I opened the bolt. No Bolt lift problem, opened with one finger but the primer would fall out the back of the case. I called Hornady,E-mailed them, jumped up and down,held my breath. I still have them junk cases. Yep they are Junk. that's why you can find them to buy..you could try a much milder load shoot it a few times to let the brass work harden some then throttle up a little. But they wont take no pressure.
This is just My Opinion. I will say I can run a real mild load on them 6.5 Creedmoore's 2,700 FPS Understand Hornady Factory Load claims 2,710 push any harder and primers fall out..I never seen that before.
You can go out and buy a box of factory Winchester loaded rounds, shoot them or pull the bullets,dump the powder. I know a buddy of mine has been doing that to get some Brass...lol....
This is just My Opinion. I will say I can run a real mild load on them 6.5 Creedmoore's 2,700 FPS Understand Hornady Factory Load claims 2,710 push any harder and primers fall out..I never seen that before.
You can go out and buy a box of factory Winchester loaded rounds, shoot them or pull the bullets,dump the powder. I know a buddy of mine has been doing that to get some Brass...lol....
Thank you so much FJIM,
I was afraid that might be the case, and I am even more bummed now if that happens to be gospel because I bought 10 boxes of this crap at $36.00 a box plus shipping. I just hope I can send this shit back and get at least some money back out of it...
P.S. how many posts do I have to have before I am no longer required to type all of this verification crap just to make a post or a reply?
I was afraid that might be the case, and I am even more bummed now if that happens to be gospel because I bought 10 boxes of this crap at $36.00 a box plus shipping. I just hope I can send this shit back and get at least some money back out of it...
P.S. how many posts do I have to have before I am no longer required to type all of this verification crap just to make a post or a reply?
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
Primers backed out are an indication of a low pressure load. One of the advantages of loading at the range is that you can make adjustments as you go. Another thing that I would take a serious look at is your case forming procedure. It sounds like you need to back your die out a bit so that you have a little feel on the bolt handle when you close the bolt on a new empty case. How do you set your die?
XTR
F-TR obssessed shooting junkie
The firing pin strike is pushing the bullet forward before the brass is grabbing the sides of the chamber then the pressure is pushing the primer out.
More neck tension on your bullets and more jam should fix it; however, it sounds like your chamber may be head spaced too long. The idea is that of the 6CM is that the neck shoulder junction should be in the same place as it is in a 243 and the shoulder body junction is moved up to give you the 31* shoulder. Sounds like if you get them set up right you'll lose another .030 or more of neck. Have you got a go-nogo gauge for it?
More neck tension on your bullets and more jam should fix it; however, it sounds like your chamber may be head spaced too long. The idea is that of the 6CM is that the neck shoulder junction should be in the same place as it is in a 243 and the shoulder body junction is moved up to give you the 31* shoulder. Sounds like if you get them set up right you'll lose another .030 or more of neck. Have you got a go-nogo gauge for it?
BoydAllen said:
I set my die up exactly as you eluded to Mr. Allen. I always set my dies up so that there is just a slight amount of tension on bolt close. Not too much, not too little. Just a nice bit of tension as the bolt cams over.
XTR said:
Yes sir I do. Chad Dixon chambered this barrel, and did it with a PTG reamer. I also own one of those reamers, as well as the matching go/no-go gauges. The chamber is set up properly without a doubt. I also requested that Chad chamber this barrel so that the boat tail to bearing surface junction matches up with the neck to shoulder junction of the case using Berger 105 Hybrids as the master. I made my own Hornady OAL case gauges from both virgin brass and a piece of my fire formed brass so that I could accurately measure OAL.
I have no doubt about the efficacy of this chamber as this is not the first barrel Chad has prepared for me, and all of the tools I have at my disposal tell me that it was done right.
I am now starting to wonder if I am just a victim of crappy Hornady brass... Do either of you gentleman have personal experience with Hornady .243 brass in your 6CM's ?
I found with my 6cm that was also done by Chad Dixon that a few rounds while fire forming would not fire. Also they were not consistant in headspace measurement, seating the bullet long wasn't enough. I ended up using a false shoulder and the bullets seated long and used the rounds to kill praire dogs in south dakota. All brass formed nicely with a purpose, reloaded the brass 4 times since and only lost one, the rifle is a absolute lazer.
Joe
Joe
Boogaloo don't let my predudice against Hornady Brass lead you astray. questions I would ask are could you push the primers sticking out in with your fingers? can you push a primer in the cases you fired with your fingers.if so you know the brass has failed. if the primer pockets are still tight then you have another problem . Like so many others have stated. Hope you get it worken.
I started at first running the 115 DTAC at 3225fps and dropped the charge, now it is 3153fps, could of went up but chose to go down. I dropped 2" of vertical at 1000 yards by doing this. From 6.5" to just under 4.5" ten shot group.
I've got just under 200 pieces of Winchester brass with 20 firings on it. They have all been checked and resized in good shape and ready to load. I've shot Lapua in one of my 6CM's but no longer do. The web of the Lapua is a little larger then Winchester and You will need to small base size after every second firing, unless you have Dave Kiff cut you a reamer for Lapua brass. He told me he does this. If you choose to use Winchcester brass just set your die up properly and the brass will last you the life of the barrel, providing you get 200-250 pieces.
Joe R has the skinny on the 6CM, he has done his homework.
Dave Bruno chambered mine and made my first die before Redding started making them. He chambered my first barrel back Dec. of '06. Been very happy ever since..... 8)
I've got just under 200 pieces of Winchester brass with 20 firings on it. They have all been checked and resized in good shape and ready to load. I've shot Lapua in one of my 6CM's but no longer do. The web of the Lapua is a little larger then Winchester and You will need to small base size after every second firing, unless you have Dave Kiff cut you a reamer for Lapua brass. He told me he does this. If you choose to use Winchcester brass just set your die up properly and the brass will last you the life of the barrel, providing you get 200-250 pieces.
Joe R has the skinny on the 6CM, he has done his homework.
Dave Bruno chambered mine and made my first die before Redding started making them. He chambered my first barrel back Dec. of '06. Been very happy ever since..... 8)
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