6BRA Ladder Test with/wo Tuner

[dmoran]

Not the same. That introduced a new variable.

At some point you don't have any significant data point unless your test can be REPEATED with the same RESULTS. And a data set of one, is not a real data set. You cannot prove a trend with a data set of one.

There was a time I would have totally agreed with you.
But the repeated use of ladder tests at intended distance, has repeatedly proven to many of us that 1 set can be all that is needed, making it a very efficient way to test. Which ultimately yields, more components and more aspects can be tested, with less ammo, time restraint, and ambient condition effect.
Donovan

 

[urbanrifleman]

In any regard, 3 back to back ladders is a good way to get a new component up and going !.!.!

I don't understand. What do you mean?

In any real test, three identical ladders is a small data set. One ladder is not a data set for comparison at all, except to itself.

It would seem to be a small and easy thing to do. Shoot 30 (3x 10) for powder. Take the median of the best vertical of the three and then do 30 (3 x 10) for seating. That is 60 shots to a tune. Am I missing something?

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I don't understand. What do you mean?

In any real test, three identical ladders is a small data set. One ladder is not a data set for comparison at all, except to itself.

It would seem to be a small and easy thing to do. Shoot 30 (3x 10) for powder. Take the median of the best vertical of the three and then do 30 (3 x 10) for seating. That is 60 shots to a tune. Am I missing something?

I have no idea how many rounds it takes to be statistically significant ENOUGH. ANY small change in the wind devalues the test. It doesn't mean the test is worthless, but it is worth less. I could probably count the times on my fingers, that flags set at 200 yards all are in agreement...much less at 1000.

 

[dkhunt14]

I don't understand. What do you mean?

In any real test, three identical ladders is a small data set. One ladder is not a data set for comparison at all, except to itself.

It would seem to be a small and easy thing to do. Shoot 30 (3x 10) for powder. Take the median of the best vertical of the three and then do 30 (3 x 10) for seating. That is 60 shots to a tune. Am I missing something?

Now with cleaning and refouling that 3 sets turns into 50. 50 and 50 is 100. I have had good barrels go away in 500 or less rounds. A true ladder will cover a grain or more. Now the number of shots go up even more. Matt

 

[dminn1]

Alex, no offense, but you keep saying that. If you have done it 100 times then why do 101? If you already know the answer, then why test at all? It is circular logic.

I mean this specific test. This thread. Why not shoot the ladder three times, one right after another? Then you would at least see a trend instead of saying you have a data set of ONE. Which could be meaningless if the wind was blowing at all.

I may be missing something but if you are referring to the ladder test that that Tom posted are there not 3 shots of each charge weight showing?

 

[Stan Taylor]

I should add something here that maybe some do or don't consider..First, yes, that's some great shooting by Tom. I do realize how rare that is. My post was based strictly upon the RELATIVE groups sizes and shapes. To say that the small amount of horizontal(and vertical) is condition related, is also saying that the other groups that show strictly vertical, devalues the entire test.

Secondly, and back to my main point that I was going to make...a crosswind also has a vertical component to it. That's the point I'm not sure that everyone considers. There are various wind charts online that show this, for evaluation. A left to right, in a rh twist barrel, will push the bullet down, and just the opposite for a r to l.

Either way...the wind blows them in, and the wind blows them out.

I agree an disagree here Tom has always been competitive at the 1000yd discipline,90 percent of the shooters across the country that do a tune whether it is a ladder or group tune are hard to beat on game day hands down this doesn't reflect at all as far as short range no matter how good of a tune you have to be on top of your game in the wind.PS if you don't tune at a 1000yds it is a guessing game.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I agree an disagree here Tom has always been competitive at the 1000yd discipline,90 percent of the shooters across the country that do a tune whether it is a ladder or group tune are hard to beat on game day hands down this doesn't reflect at all as far as short range no matter how good of a tune you have to be on top of your game in the wind.PS if you don't tune at a 1000yds it is a guessing game.

I agree. I think 100 can give a baseline but that you have to tune at the yardage you plan to shoot.

But, regardless of distance, there is a vertical component to crosswinds.

 

[Stan Taylor]

I agree. I think 100 can give a baseline but that you have to tune at the yardage you plan to shoot.

But, regardless of distance, there is a vertical component to crosswinds.

If you do not tune at distance you shoot it is definitely a guessing game vertical kills an horizontal is usely wind as long as it is not to flat an tune is off, barrels that shoot in the wind I call hummers.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

If you do not tune at distance you shoot it is definitely a guessing game vertical kills an horizontal is usely wind as long as it is not to flat an tune is off, barrels that shoot in the wind I call hummers.

Are you saying that a crosswind has no affect on vertical?

 

[Stan Taylor]

Are you saying that a crosswind has no affect on vertical?

Tune an light an temps pretty much gives you fits on vertical to many variables come in to play shooting that far away.PS I am by no means an expert on this I go an shoot an try an learn from my mistakes an have did okay at it it is a learning curve ever time You set down behind the bench.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Tune an light an temps pretty much gives you fits on vertical to many variables come in to play shooting that far away.

All of those matter greatly in short range, as well.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

We kind f hijacked ole "Ballzers" thread here, sorry about that Bart.

Mike,

I believe that group would have windage in it in a vacuum. And a totally flat tune is not what we want for agging at 1k. Very rarely do I see a "zeros" vertical tune hold less that 4.0" of windage. I can think of 3 targets in my possession that have (5 shot groups), and those were awful in any conditions at all both vertical and horizontal. I don't count this ladder as a "group" because I don't shoot the 3 like charges together as groups. I shoot one ladder low to high, then repeat, then repeat again. Takes about 45 seconds total.


Tom

I don't understand what you're saying. Are you saying that you use three different vertical poa's for a ladder test??

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Suppertime

 

[DT]

No, one POA sighted to hit right one moa in this example. I don't shoot all 3 of any one charge as a "group". I want to spread conditions out evenly for all shots, so I work low to high 3 separate times for a total of 15 shots.


Tom

Makes the result of this ladder even more valid.

 

[MattS]

Alex, no offense, but you keep saying that. If you have done it 100 times then why do 101? If you already know the answer, then why test at all? It is circular logic.

I’ve sat back and read a lot on here and all of a sudden I keep seeing you poke at these guys on multiple threads...

Do YOU have any National level wins? How about World Records? Have you shot small at 1K hell even 600?

I think if you read then test like these guys do you might learn for yourself....

Have a good one

 

[Toby Bradshaw]

Oh good grief... Those extra 20 shots would, I am sure, burn the barrel up...

When you're ready to show Tom how it's done, better bring your "A" game.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Alex, no offense, but you keep saying that. If you have done it 100 times then why do 101? If you already know the answer, then why test at all? It is circular logic.

I mean this specific test. This thread. Why not shoot the ladder three times, one right after another? Then you would at least see a trend instead of saying you have a data set of ONE. Which could be meaningless if the wind was blowing at all.

If you get offended the Internets not a good place for you. I am absolutely not offended. Theres plenty of info on ladders in you do a search, but let me say this. If you have to shoot more than one your not doing it right. We call them ladders (3x ladders), but they are really a series of 3 shot groups all shot at the same time and poa.

Conditions are critical, you and your rifle need to be capable of precision and so you your loads. There is so much info in one ladder other than the overlap or "good spot". As Mike pointed out you can see how much wind is at play in a wide node. This was a good example. You get to see what each side of the overlap looks like and how bad it will get if you go out of tune, you may want to favor one side based on expect temp changes ext. The bigger learning curve which continues is the overall shape of the ladder and what you can learn from it. You could literally write a small book on deciphering all the data in a ladder. Its short sighted to look just for the group.

When a ladder looks right, it is. Its 1k, you dont get lucky ladders. I feel confident in saying almost every record set at Deep Creek in the last 4 years or so has been tuned in this manner. I tuned my rifle before every match with a 9 shot ladder. It never lied to me once.

Another reason for not shooting the same ladder is there are many things you want to test, and you need to do it in as little round as possible to conserve the best part of the barrels life.

I quit trying to convince others of the value of this way of tuning. If its not your cup of tea, dont do it. Thats cool. There are plenty of other methods that can work for you. Bart is doing very well tuning at 100 yards.

Tom's ladder he posted is not an uncommon thing. I have seen and shot a lot like that with 1-2" overlap. I think I have chambered Tom 4 BRA barrels now and every one has shot in the 1s for vertical in testing. I think his last dasher barrel shot over 10 groups in a season in the 1s for vertical. It may seem hard to believe, but the guy knows how to tune them. So do a lot of others at deep creek and around the country. Its no secret.

I know we have showed a few new shooters and even a skeptic these tests while at deep creek. They saw the testing done then the results of the match the following day. If your ever in the area and can come by a match, we will be happy to have you.

 

[Tim Singleton]

Alex, no offense, but you keep saying that. If you have done it 100 times then why do 101? If you already know the answer, then why test at all? It is circular logic.

I mean this specific test. This thread. Why not shoot the ladder three times, one right after another? Then you would at least see a trend instead of saying you have a data set of ONE. Which could be meaningless if the wind was blowing at all.

This kinda thing gets to me a little. We've got men that compete and are winning at the National level and we still have key board critics popup.
Then we wonder why more guys that are actually competing dont post on this forum
Read what they have to say that is working for them incorporate it into your system or not. Or post up some actual data of your own maybe.
No reason to try to poke holes in something these men are willing to share.
The rest of us want to hear it
Thanks, Bart,Alex and tom
Most of us appreciate your time

 

[urbanrifleman]

If you get offended the Internets not a good place for you. I am absolutely not offended. Theres plenty of info on ladders in you do a search, but let me say this. If you have to shoot more than one your not doing it right. We call them ladders (3x ladders), but they are really a series of 3 shot groups all shot at the same time and poa.

Conditions are critical, you and your rifle need to be capable of precision and so you your loads. There is so much info in one ladder other than the overlap or "good spot". As Mike pointed out you can see how much wind is at play in a wide node. This was a good example. You get to see what each side of the overlap looks like and how bad it will get if you go out of tune, you may want to favor one side based on expect temp changes ext. The bigger learning curve which continues is the overall shape of the ladder and what you can learn from it. You could literally write a small book on deciphering all the data in a ladder. Its short sighted to look just for the group.

When a ladder looks right, it is. Its 1k, you dont get lucky ladders. I feel confident in saying almost every record set at Deep Creek in the last 4 years or so has been tuned in this manner. I tuned my rifle before every match with a 9 shot ladder. It never lied to me once.

Another reason for not shooting the same ladder is there are many things you want to test, and you need to do it in as little round as possible to conserve the best part of the barrels life.

I quit trying to convince others of the value of this way of tuning. If its not your cup of tea, dont do it. Thats cool. There are plenty of other methods that can work for you. Bart is doing very well tuning at 100 yards.

Tom's ladder he posted is not an uncommon thing. I have seen and shot a lot like that with 1-2" overlap. I think I have chambered Tom 4 BRA barrels now and every one has shot in the 1s for vertical in testing. I think his last dasher barrel shot over 10 groups in a season in the 1s for vertical. It may seem hard to believe, but the guy knows how to tune them. So do a lot of others at deep creek and around the country. Its no secret.

I know we have showed a few new shooters and even a skeptic these tests while at deep creek. They saw the testing done then the results of the match the following day. If your ever in the area and can come by a match, we will be happy to have you.

Hey now, just so I am clear, I am not CRITICIZING anything here. Just commenting. I think it is AMAZING!!! I have my bullets all colored up for two rifles waiting for the weekend!!! Are you kidding?? I am a born again hard ladder tuner guy now. Just trying to understand it.

Apparently, there are some things about the complete process that I am unclear about. I did not understand the number of shots in the complete ladder, if there are three per charge, then that would answer my question.

So, everyone settle down. Sheesh man. It's a discussion. On a FORUM. Where you discuss things... And I think people WANT to read in some hostility into lots of these discussions. I have been trying to keep my questions precise, but for some people, they WANT to see someone a certain way, they will, and make it political or offensive or whatever. The truth is, pointed questions are not hostility. But then the discussion always degrades into WHO should comment, or HOW they should comment... It is is just tiresome.

If I want to POKE someone, I will poke them. I am not poking anyone. If I want to poke someone I will start my post with something like "Jane you ignorant slut".

 

[urbanrifleman]

@urbanrifleman

Small samples can and do work, especially when working with a new barrel, and a new reamer, and bullets that are out of a new die. The thing is, precision degrades with added distance. So when we see something working at 1k, it's working.


Here is the first ladder ever shot with my first 6 BRA last year. I only did 2 of each, and covered more charges by making coarser adjustments. I found where I hit pressure a few days prior and worked backwards from there.

View attachment 1034446


From the above result, I locked in on 31.1 for testing other aspects of the load.

Below is a couple groups it shot in the heavy gun class in April 2017, on it's way to the best 10 target aggregate I've ever shot......You'll never guess what powder charge so I'll just let the cat out of the bag, it was 31.11. (But don't tell everyone)

View attachment 1034447

This stuff really does work, really.


Tom

So, this shows a two shot per charge ladder then huh? And you shot the two charges from bottom up then bottom up or in pairs?