6BRA Ladder Test with/wo Tuner

[Stan Taylor]

I certainly understand your point! In short range we get this a lot when a load is too hot. It will bury two shots and pitch one. There was no reason condition wise for the bullet to take off like it did. It was so far out that I wanted to confirm the results. At 100 yards ES may be an indicator of the “health” of a load at but has virtually no effect on vertical at this distance.

I’m on a bit of a weather hold but my next step is to take some of these loads out to 500 yards and see what they will do. Matches are coming up shortly and I’d like figure out what I’m going to shoot.

I’d just about bet that I could load 30.6 and 31.0 and one of those loads would work. Just guessing!

I think you will do just fine there (Rookie)

 

[moondog]

Re purposed my BR T shirt

 

[dmoran]

^^^^ that shirt logo ROCKS !.!.!

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

The one where they all converge at 1000 yards!

View attachment 1034359 View attachment 1034360


At least that's how I do it initially for a spot to do other fine tuning.

Tom

Fine shooting, for sure! There appears to be a lot of vertical and almost zero horizontal with the 30.8 and 30.9 loads. But, with the 31.0 and 31.1, there is a vastly better vertical, but some horizontal. My question is, where did the horizontal come from.

If it has a tuner, I'd move it just a tad, maybe even a small fraction of 1 mark. But I'm asking where you think it came from, as the other loads show virtually zero on the horizontal plane.

 

[dmoran]

Fine shooting, for sure! There appears to be a lot of vertical and almost zero horizontal with the 30.8 and 30.9 loads. But, with the 31.0 and 31.1, there is a vastly better vertical, but some horizontal. My question is, where did the horizontal come from.

If it has a tuner, I'd move it just a tad, maybe even a small fraction of 1 mark. But I'm asking where you think it came from, as the other loads show virtually zero on the horizontal plane.

Mike -
Thinking your not realizing it: Tom's ladder test was at 1000yds. And is less then .2-MOA of horizontal.
Donovan

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Fine shooting, for sure! There appears to be a lot of vertical and almost zero horizontal with the 30.8 and 30.9 loads. But, with the 31.0 and 31.1, there is a vastly better vertical, but some horizontal. My question is, where did the horizontal come from.

If it has a tuner, I'd move it just a tad, maybe even a small fraction of 1 mark. But I'm asking where you think it came from, as the other loads show virtually zero on the horizontal plane.

Im not Tom, but I will give you my opinion. We see that often. When your out of tune the bullets will buck the wind like no other. Most guys have been to a match and shot a big ugly group in the wind while someone on the same relay will be out of tune and shoot a 12" paint stripe with only 1" of wind in it. When you get to the spot there is an inch of vertical the groups always seem to get some width there. You can trade some of that width for vertical with the tune. Probably the best agging groups have a touch of vertical left in them. But to try to tune out the width in a 1 13/16" group at 1k is likely an exercise in futility. Personaly I would not do much more tuning with that barrel. You can tune for a dot at 100, but I have not seen round groups get much under 2" very often.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Mike -
Thinking your not realizing it: Tom's ladder test was at 1000yds. And is less then .2-MOA of horizontal.
Donovan

I do Donovan. That is some fine shooting but the other groups show very good condition reading and/or some extremely good conditions.

It would be easy to say it's condition related and it may well be...but it doesn't show in the other two groups.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I do Donovan. That is some fine shooting but the other groups show very good condition reading and/or some extremely good conditions.

It would be easy to say it's condition related and it may well be...but it doesn't show in the other two groups.

You are correct and one of the reasons I love ladders. They show you things like that. Its not condition related necessarily. Its the tune. Either there is horizontal in that tune or the bullets are a little more wind sensitive there. But tuning it out may not be possible.

 

[dmoran]

Mike - (@gunsandgunsmithing)
Those 6 at 1000, are what 1 tiny little hole looks like at 100 to me.
I've never shot a group that small at 1000 (15-years of trying...lol)

Alex's explanation (Post #115) echo's what I see happens at 1000 as well....
Donovan

 

[urbanrifleman]

You are correct and one of the reasons I love ladders. They show you things like that. Its not condition related necessarily. Its the tune. Either there is horizontal in that tune or the bullets are a little more wind sensitive there. But tuning it out may not be possible.

Do it five times. Then you would have a data set.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Do it five times. Then you would have a data set.

We have done it hundreds of times.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Im not Tom, but I will give you my opinion. We see that often. When your out of tune the bullets will buck the wind like no other. Most guys have been to a match and shot a big ugly group in the wind while someone on the same relay will be out of tune and shoot a 12" paint stripe with only 1" of wind in it. When you get to the spot there is an inch of vertical the groups always seem to get some width there. You can trade some of that width for vertical with the tune. Probably the best agging groups have a touch of vertical left in them. But to try to tune out the width in a 1 13/16" group at 1k is likely an exercise in futility. Personaly I would not do much more tuning with that barrel. You can tune for a dot at 100, but I have not seen round groups get much under 2" very often.

I agree with you and Tom. My thought is, and it's just a thought but based on experience at short range. I think it has crested at the top of the node, when the best possible setting is just barely prior to the crest. That brings up positive compensation, but essentially, it's just where a fast round exits the barrel sooner in the upswing than a slow round. Where, ideally, both speeds hit at the same poi.

 

[urbanrifleman]

We have done it hundreds of times.

Alex, no offense, but you keep saying that. If you have done it 100 times then why do 101? If you already know the answer, then why test at all? It is circular logic.

I mean this specific test. This thread. Why not shoot the ladder three times, one right after another? Then you would at least see a trend instead of saying you have a data set of ONE. Which could be meaningless if the wind was blowing at all.

 

[Toby Bradshaw]

Alex, no offense, but you keep saying that. If you have done it 100 times then why do 101? If you already know the answer, then why test at all? It is circular logic.

I mean this specific test. This thread. Why not shoot the ladder three times, one right after another? Then you would at least see a trend instead of saying you have a data set of ONE. Which could be meaningless if the wind was blowing at all.

Every shot is data point. Barrels have limited competitive lifetimes. If you have a better way to shoot small at 1K, the only way to be taken seriously is to do some winning against those who have developed testing methods that work where it counts.

 

[dmoran]

@urbanrifleman -
I believe @tom did shoot a couple more ladders with those same charges, but with different seating depths.
Plus he had already shot the "sine wave" test at 300yds, that aided to his base line.

In any regard, 3 back to back ladders is a good way to get a new component up and going !.!.!
Then once we have established zones, the efficiency of small sample testing has proven well for the additional ladder tests, and believing in what the targets/single data sets yield.
Donovan

 

[urbanrifleman]

Every shot is data point. Barrels have limited competitive lifetimes. If you have a better way to shoot small at 1K, the only way to be taken seriously is to do some winning against those who have developed testing methods that work where it counts.

Oh good grief... Those extra 20 shots would, I am sure, burn the barrel up...

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I agree with you and Tom. My thought is, and it's just a thought but based on experience at short range. I think it has crested at the top of the node, when the best possible setting is just barely prior to the crest. That brings up positive compensation, but essentially, it's just where a fast round exits the barrel sooner in the upswing than a slow round. Where, ideally, both speeds hit at the same poi.

I should add something here that maybe some do or don't consider..First, yes, that's some great shooting by Tom. I do realize how rare that is. My post was based strictly upon the RELATIVE groups sizes and shapes. To say that the small amount of horizontal(and vertical) is condition related, is also saying that the other groups that show strictly vertical, devalues the entire test.

Secondly, and back to my main point that I was going to make...a crosswind also has a vertical component to it. That's the point I'm not sure that everyone considers. There are various wind charts online that show this, for evaluation. A left to right, in a rh twist barrel, will push the bullet down, and just the opposite for a r to l.

Either way...the wind blows them in, and the wind blows them out.

 

[urbanrifleman]

@urbanrifleman -
I believe @tom did shoot a couple more ladders with those same charges, but with different seating depths.

Not the same. That introduced a new variable.

At some point you don't have any significant data point unless your test can be REPEATED with the same RESULTS. And a data set of one, is not a real data set. You cannot prove a trend with a data set of one.

 

[Tim Singleton]

Im not Tom, but I will give you my opinion. We see that often. When your out of tune the bullets will buck the wind like no other. Most guys have been to a match and shot a big ugly group in the wind while someone on the same relay will be out of tune and shoot a 12" paint stripe with only 1" of wind in it. When you get to the spot there is an inch of vertical the groups always seem to get some width there. You can trade some of that width for vertical with the tune. Probably the best agging groups have a touch of vertical left in them. But to try to tune out the width in a 1 13/16" group at 1k is likely an exercise in futility. Personaly I would not do much more tuning with that barrel. You can tune for a dot at 100, but I have not seen round groups get much under 2" very often.

So glad to see you to say this. The BC is all that matters crowd I've argued this with before don't understand what a tuned rifle is capable of. They haven't shot enough themselves to have ever seen a tuned rifle buck the conditions
Carry on the good work!

 

[dkhunt14]

So glad to see you to say this. The BC is all that matters crowd I've argued this with before don't understand what a tuned rifle is capable of. They haven't shot enough themselves to have ever seen a tuned rifle buck the conditions
Carry on the good work!

I have said that for along time. When you get it right it shoots through it. That's why certain peoples aggregates are usually little. They know what's going on. Matt