6br vs starting 6 ppc

[Pareto]

Try N135 in 3 shot groups from 8 in to 8 off .002 at a time with a federal primer. I run my 68s at a measly 3350, and they shoot incredible.

I do think I need to do more depth testing.

 

[dgeesaman]

I like competing with myself to see how well I can shoot both groups and targets. I have been very happy with my slow 6br, except for not getting it to shoot below 0.25 at 100.

So I have been considering 6 ppc. I don't mind fire forming but find neck turning a pain. Who makes no neck turn 6ppc rifles and what would a good rig cost? I've never seen one pop up in the used section.

Suggestions?

Thanks

I have both and I shoot both regularly at 100. Neither of mine are benchrest rifles.

Most 6BRs are set up for 100+gr bullets and they shoot acceptably well at 100y. They really shine of course at 200-1000y. 6PPC are pretty universally set up for 100-200y.

Sako (and Ruger and a few others) chambered factory rifles in 6PPC-USA, which is no-turn, but those are getting harder to find. The other thing about those is the throat is set to make finding the landing almost impossible with a loaded round. I don't believe that 6PPC tuning must happen at touch or jam, but a lot of it is. So with the factory guns you'll either have bullets just barely seated in the neck to reach the lands or your tunes will simply be playing in the range from a lot of jump to a whole lot of jump.

My gunsmith (Bob Green) rebarreled my Sako using a min-SAAMI spec no-turn 6PPC reamer. Works great. I still skim necks for uniformity. Not all 6PPC brass has the same neck thickness - for example the Norma is about .001/side thinner than fireformed Lapua 220R - so you do need to know your chamber neck and leave some clearance with the loaded rounds.

Back to comparison. 6PPC is the smoother, less jumpy round. If your 6BR is set up for heavy bullets I think you'll enjoy 6PPC with 60-70gr bullets more. If your 6BR is set up for 60-80gr bullets the difference will be smaller.

 

[Pareto]

My 6br is set up for light bullets as a 14 twist. I think I will stick with it for now while I improve my reloads, shooting form, and wind calls to be more consistent. I appreciate all the comments and pms. You're a great group.

 

[Shooter13]

I would say most smiths would have options on neck diameters . .270-.272 diameter should be a noturn neck anything smaller might require a skim cut depending on brass make and bullet used.

A true "no turn" 6PPC even with Barts 68 grain Avenger (.2432) would need to be a .273 or even a .274, why you ask? Well the new brass that I've seen like Alpha is .015 X 2 = .030 + .2432 = .2732 so a skim cut would be required to get it to .270 or .271. Some of the brass I've measured was around .014 and that would equal .2713. Has anyone seen any brass under the .014 or .015 thickness?

 

[dgeesaman]

I don't remember exact numbers but I've used Norma and Sako 6PPC-USA brass and it was a lot less than .015. I don't think my last batch of Lapua 220R was thicker than .0135.

 

[Murray Brook]

I have some 6MM PPC USA Norma brass and it measures on average .011

 

[Shooter13]

I have some 6MM PPC USA Norma brass and it measures on average .011

From what I understand the Norma doesn't do as well as the Alpha or the Lapua, I've never tested myself.

 

[Ccrider]

My finished loads with Norma brass were .265.

 

[Murray Brook]

From what I understand the Norma doesn't do as well as the Alpha or the Lapua, I've never tested myself.

I couldn't comment on Alpha as I have never used that brass. Right now I am on my 12'th firing of the Norma brass and all seems good although my load is on the mild side. I have no doubt that Laupa would be better but by using Norma I avoid the fire forming. My rifle is a Sako 6mm ppc usa.

 

[TRSR8]

While I assume you can get any number of no turn options, with so many PPC reamers now running .268”-269” necks that only require a light cut, it really is zero issue and goes fast, particularly with the Alpha brass, which among other attributes, cuts better than anything I ever used, plus, it's so close to PPC final dimension because it comes as PPC not 220, you can load a full charge to finish and it groups almost as good As final forming.
It’s so good, I sold my gold box Lapua

 

[searcher]

I don't have a 6ppc, but have had a few 6BRs, so take this with grain of salt. I would evaluate your set up. 6BR is the easy button for reloading. If you can't obtain .25 group with a 6br, it might be harder to do with a 6ppc. Although probably more accurate in the long run you need to do more to get there than what you already have.

What is your set up like gun wise? Brass, bullets powder? It's your money, and you spend it how you see fit, but I love the 6br.

I had a 6br repeater with a Tenacity action and a NSS criterion barrel and a trigger tech special, sitting in a KRG bravo stock, and could get .25 groups with Hornady 105 BTHP. Was it every group? Absolutely not. But it shot very well for a budget setup.

I'm the same as you. I compete with myself. Either way, good luck!

I agree with this. The 6BR is generally (I believe) easier to tune than a 6PPC. If 1/4" MOA is the best one can get out of a (presumably) moderate/heavy target barrel, it is not because of the caliber, or that it is a no-turn neck. It is either the barrel or possibly the load combination, assuming the rifle itself is dialed in regarding bedding, scope & mounts, etc. The 6 BR will recoil slightly more than the PPC of same weight, but both are too mild to really make any strong comparison on ease of shooting. I'd be inclined to re-visit the load itself, perhaps a change of powder if Varget and IMR8208XBR for 105-107 grain bullets hasn't been tried. Each of my barrels likes a different load and bullet, though there is one particular load that shoots surprisingly well in all - a 105 Lapua Scenar "L" bullet, stoked with Varget, Lapua cases and Federal 205M primers. Bullet soft jammed .005", though I found the seating depth best at .015" off for 600-yard shooting. Another load that shoots "good" in them is a 105 Berger with 8208XBR. When I first got my first 6BR, all I read was how "easy to tune" they were. That ended up being true - but only after I found a load the rifle liked. The load your rifle likes may not be the load most guys use or are published as being the "cat's meow". Maybe you have already tried everything - and if you have, a barrel change might be a consideration - but the 6PPC is also not the fairy dust many say it is - but then some really know how to load for it after learning its quirks. Its paying the dues. Unless my barrel had a high round count on it already, I'd be inclined to work up some different loads. Custom bullets are usually best - but not necessary to get you well under 1/4" MOA in wind-free setting to see what it will do. if you are using factory bullets, try the 105 Berger, 107 Sierra MK, 105 Scenar L bullet, etc. - all assuming you are running a 1-8" twist. If none of these work (better than you have gotten) with either Varget or 8208XBR, your barrel might be an exception. Good luck!

 

[ELR LVR]

I like competing with myself to see how well I can shoot both groups and targets. I have been very happy with my slow 6br, except for not getting it to shoot below 0.25 at 100.

So I have been considering 6 ppc. I don't mind fire forming but find neck turning a pain. Who makes no neck turn 6ppc rifles and what would a good rig cost? I've never seen one pop up in the used section.

Suggestions?

Thanks

22 BR
Done
Most accurate hole punchers I have experienced
Because of that I gave up on my 6 BR and now have four 22BR's
This particular load is throwing 55 grainers out at 3810 fps

 

[Ccrider]

I don’t mean to be mean or disrespectful but there is SOoooo much wrong with your question. First NO. I don’t think you will find a no turn 6ppc that would be better than your 6BR. Maybe an older Sako or Cooper if you found a used one. I had a good shooting Sako 75 22ppc. I never had a no turn 14T 6BR. All mine were .262 or .269. There are so many possible problems why your 6BR won’t shoot below a .250. That I could not list them all. I would suggest you find the reason your 6 BR won’t shoot below a .250 before you go any further. You need to find a competent BR shooter or a veteran hand loader/shooter to diagnose why your BR won’t shoot below .250 I actually doubt a no turn 6ppc would be of any use to you until you can give a reason that your BR won’t shoot below .250. If you had a diagnosis that say it’s the barrel. Ok a new barrel should solve it. But I can tell you right now you could get a 6ppc with a poor barrel that won’t shoot below a .250 also. I’ve had em.

Read these post and accept them as being the truth. @searcher and others says pretty much the same thing.

If you can’t get your properly built 6br to shoot small, you will not be able to get a 6ppc to consistently shoot small.

Look at these two threads. They both are about the same 6br barrel when I first got started in this. The first thread shows where I was coached into getting close to tune. The second contains post from some of the best doing this that are golden. Bottom line was that the problem was my lack of knowledge, not the gun, not the caliber or neck diameter.

Need Some Help with 6BR 21” Criterion 8tw Load Development

Had some free time so I stsrted load development on a Savage model 16 stainless action, large shank criterion 1:8T 21" bull barrel. Could not find much data using a short barrel. I decided to start out with 29.6gr Varget and 87gr Vmaxs. Using a 4.5-14 Meuller scope. Not exactly the remedy, but...

forum.accurateshooter.com

6BR “Boyer Method” Help Needed

Decided to test 80gr Bergers in my 1:8tw 28” Criterion using Varget and 450cci primers. Started off at .01 jumped and made .005 increases. Pretty much confused as to where to go next. No pressure signs with the 31.8 gr Varget. Too much info for me to process. Any help will be appreciated.

forum.accurateshooter.com

Straight shootin!
Charles

 

[Pareto]

Read these post and accept them as being the truth. @searcher and others says pretty much the same thing.

If you can’t get your properly built 6br to shoot small, you will not be able to get a 6ppc to consistently shoot small.

Look at these two threads. They both are about the same 6br barrel when I first got started in this. The first thread shows where I was coached into getting close to tune. The second contains post from some of the best doing this that are golden. Bottom line was that the problem was my lack of knowledge, not the gun, not the caliber or neck diameter.

Need Some Help with 6BR 21” Criterion 8tw Load Development

Had some free time so I stsrted load development on a Savage model 16 stainless action, large shank criterion 1:8T 21" bull barrel. Could not find much data using a short barrel. I decided to start out with 29.6gr Varget and 87gr Vmaxs. Using a 4.5-14 Meuller scope. Not exactly the remedy, but...

forum.accurateshooter.com

6BR “Boyer Method” Help Needed

Decided to test 80gr Bergers in my 1:8tw 28” Criterion using Varget and 450cci primers. Started off at .01 jumped and made .005 increases. Pretty much confused as to where to go next. No pressure signs with the 31.8 gr Varget. Too much info for me to process. Any help will be appreciated.

forum.accurateshooter.com

Straight shootin!
Charles

As I've already indicated, I will stick to the 6br for now.

 

[Pareto]

BTW, since I started using the customized Wilson 6br sizer, the groups have gotten more consistent and I'm getting fewer hard bolt lifts. So that clearly was part of the problem.

 

[Eric Leonard]

From what I understand the Norma doesn't do as well as the Alpha or the Lapua, I've never tested myself.

Frankie I couldn’t find any Lapua last year and shot the Norma all year ,, it measured .265 with Larry’s bullets seated and shot no turn straight out of the box in a .268 chamber,, I shot 514 with it at Ky State match on its first loading, I didn’t even run it through a size die just loaded it out of the box.
I wound up shooting that brass 10 times last year at 3400 fps with 68 gr bullets and the primer pockets are still tight enough to use but I tried to get up to the next node and trashed a few pieces and just stayed there at 3400

 

[Webster]

I like competing with myself to see how well I can shoot both groups and targets. I have been very happy with my slow 6br, except for not getting it to shoot below 0.250 at 100.

So I have been considering 6 ppc. I don't mind fire forming but find neck turning a pain. Who makes no neck turn 6ppc rifles and what would a good rig cost? I've never seen one pop up in the used section.

Suggestions?

Thanks

Maybe it's just the barrel quality that prevents small groups. Consistently under .250" is asking a lot if it's a factory non custom rifle or a custom build. I see a lot of guys on this website buy from barrel makers I never heard of. Most of the top competitors only buy from about 4 top companies. Most of us cannot buy a bunch of barrels to find a great one. To consistently shoot under .250” you would be competitive in National Mathes. Maybe not in the top 5 but you would be considered a good shooter. Is that where you’re at? Some guys put well over $6000 in a rifle, scope and rest and find out they cannot compete with the leaders. Sometimes you just have to be happy with what you have. You said you cannot get below 0.250". That tells me most of you groups are a little bigger than 0.250". If there is a potential HOF shooter at your range talk to him.

Why do you call your 6BR slow. I shoot 58 gr bullets at 3585 fps. Shot a few without pressure at 3605 . My 6BRX easily over 3700 fps.

 

[Pareto]

Maybe it's just the barrel quality that prevents small groups. Consistently under .250" is asking a lot if it's a factory non custom rifle or a custom build. I see a lot of guys on this website buy from barrel makers I never heard of. Most of the top competitors only buy from about 4 top companies. Most of us cannot buy a bunch of barrels to find a great one. To consistently shoot under .250” you would be competitive in National Mathes. Maybe not in the top 5 but you would be considered a good shooter. Is that where you’re at? Some guys put well over $6000 in a rifle, scope and rest and find out they cannot compete with the leaders. Sometimes you just have to be happy with what you have. You said you cannot get below 0.250". That tells me most of you groups are a little bigger than 0.250". If there is a potential HOF shooter at your range talk to him.

Why do you call your 6BR slow. I shoot 58 gr bullets at 3585 fps. Shot a few without pressure at 3605 . My 6BRX easily over 3700 fps.

I meant it's a slow twist 1:14 barrel, when I said "slow." Not the usual 1:8 designed for 300 to 600. Mine is clearly a short range benchrest gun. As for velocities, I'm averaging around 3325 or so for 68 grain pills.

 

[Pareto]

Also, I could never shoot a group anywhere near this one before, even by accident.

 

[Pareto]

I am curious about one thing. I'm getting velocities with the bullet that Vihtavuori lists for their max load of 33.9 grains of N135. I'm only using 31.4 and getting what seem to be hot loads. Could a 24" barrel make that big a difference?