6br vs starting 6 ppc

[Pareto]

I like competing with myself to see how well I can shoot both groups and targets. I have been very happy with my slow 6br, except for not getting it to shoot below 0.25 at 100.

So I have been considering 6 ppc. I don't mind fire forming but find neck turning a pain. Who makes no neck turn 6ppc rifles and what would a good rig cost? I've never seen one pop up in the used section.

Suggestions?

Thanks

 

[CJ6]

I would say most smiths would have options on neck diameters . .270-.272 diameter should be a noturn neck anything smaller might require a skim cut depending on brass make and bullet used.

 

[Frankr]

I don’t mean to be mean or disrespectful but there is SOoooo much wrong with your question. First NO. I don’t think you will find a no turn 6ppc that would be better than your 6BR. Maybe an older Sako or Cooper if you found a used one. I had a good shooting Sako 75 22ppc. I never had a no turn 14T 6BR. All mine were .262 or .269. There are so many possible problems why your 6BR won’t shoot below a .250. That I could not list them all. I would suggest you find the reason your 6 BR won’t shoot below a .250 before you go any further. You need to find a competent BR shooter or a veteran hand loader/shooter to diagnose why your BR won’t shoot below .250 I actually doubt a no turn 6ppc would be of any use to you until you can give a reason that your BR won’t shoot below .250. If you had a diagnosis that say it’s the barrel. Ok a new barrel should solve it. But I can tell you right now you could get a 6ppc with a poor barrel that won’t shoot below a .250 also. I’ve had em.

 

[Pareto]

I don’t mean to be mean or disrespectful but there is SOoooo much wrong with your question. First NO. I don’t think you will find a no turn 6ppc that would be better than your 6BR. Maybe an older Sako or Cooper if you found a used one. I had a good shooting Sako 75 22ppc. I never had a no turn 14T 6BR. All mine were .262 or .269. There are so many possible problems why your 6BR won’t shoot below a .250. That I could not list them all. I would suggest you find the reason your 6 BR won’t shoot below a .250 before you go any further. You need to find a competent BR shooter or a veteran hand loader/shooter to diagnose why your BR won’t shoot below .250 I actually doubt a no turn 6ppc would be of any use to you until you can give a reason that your BR won’t shoot below .250. If you had a diagnosis that say it’s the barrel. Ok a new barrel should solve it. But I can tell you right now you could get a 6ppc with a poor barrel that won’t shoot below a .250 also. I’ve had em.

Thanks. This is useful. I mostly do rimfire and have to stumble through BR centerfire on my own as I don't know anyone around to help me out.

 

[Ccrider]

Just get a no turn 6ppc barrel and swap it out on you br.

 

[Clancy]

Have your brass in hand before you decide what a “no turn” is, because even the best varies.

Sure, a PPC will generally shoot a little better than a BR. Enough to notice. You don’t see many BRs on the line. Why not give it a try?

But, if you told us about your setup and practice, we might could help you live with what you’ve got!

 

[Frankr]

Honestly yes without knowing anything. Let’s be honest could be you, your set up, scope, wind, temp conditions. Load, bullet. All the same problems you would have and maybe more with having to form cases. I think you can buy Norma 6ppc brass. I have some. Not as good as Lapua. My opinion going the easy way no turn none BR 6ppc chamber you would be better off with a BR that shot properly. Now going full Benchrest the PPC is the way to go.
This is the way I was thinking about it.
I have a few 14T 6BR that would do .150-.250. Yes I have shot them in BR matches. I have also had a Pile of 22 and 6PPC’s.

 

[Frankr]

Another thought is seeking extreme accuracy and you are just shooting with yourself. A good neck turner and you only need to do 25 good cases and with a good bushing die you can wear that 6PPC barrel out with them cases. It’s really a necessary evil IMO.

 

[Kevin1990]

I don't have a 6ppc, but have had a few 6BRs, so take this with grain of salt. I would evaluate your set up. 6BR is the easy button for reloading. If you can't obtain .25 group with a 6br, it might be harder to do with a 6ppc. Although probably more accurate in the long run you need to do more to get there than what you already have.

What is your set up like gun wise? Brass, bullets powder? It's your money, and you spend it how you see fit, but I love the 6br.

I had a 6br repeater with a Tenacity action and a NSS criterion barrel and a trigger tech special, sitting in a KRG bravo stock, and could get .25 groups with Hornady 105 BTHP. Was it every group? Absolutely not. But it shot very well for a budget setup.

I'm the same as you. I compete with myself. Either way, good luck!

 

[Schippergreg]

Are you shooting over wind flags? If you want to shoot under .250” consistently you need to.

 

[Clancy]

@Kevin1990 makes an excellent point.

Straight out of the box, I don’t think there’s anything in the world that holds a candle to 6BR.

But, a well executed PPC can still smoke it, and what you learn from the first set of cases/ barrel/ gun will certainly give you a head start on the next one in the PPC.

All that being said, if you hand two Joe Blows of equal and average skill a 6BR and a 6 PPC of equal quality, I think it’ll be some time before the PPC shooter outshines the BR shooter. There’s just more to learn, and fewer things that produce results.

 

[Frankr]

So since we know nothing. I’ll assume everything is right with the Rifle and scope.
Lapua 6BR brass. A full length bushing die set up correctly. A top of the line custom hand made bullet. Barts, BiB’s. Could try a Berger. But a top level BR bullet. Cases need to be completely prepped, primer pockets, flash holes. All on the same firing cycle and possibly pull some of out of the group. The powder charge. Tuned. You can change neck tension, the actual bullet. The bullet seating depth. You may need to try 4-5 different powders. H322, H335, H4895. RL10 my favorite. LT32. And tune. To get consistent let’s say .180-.225 The right bullet, powder combo. A good barrel. It’s not easy to do if you are not willing to put in the work and try different stuff.

 

[ISS]

There was a post here a couple years ago where a shooter just about gave a benchrest rifle away because it would not group under your rifle's .250" range. He sold it dirt cheap to the poster. Who took it to the range. And took a hex wrench to all four of the bases screws. One was loose. Snugged it down to specs, and the gun started shooting in the medium .1" range at 100 yards with the same scope and load.

That is where I would start. Loosen all the base screws, and retighten to spec. Then, loosen and retighten all of the scope rings to spec. Then, shoot a grid to test the scope click values. I use 1/4" graph paper. Zero the rifle. Shoot ONE SHOT on a grid intersection. Click the horizontal knob the equivalent of 1" to the right. Then down 2" with the vertical knob. Then left 2" with the horizontal knob. Then, up 2" with the vertical knob. Look at the bullet holes, and measure. The distance they are off the grid intersections is your effective group size. If it helps, take a thin tip Sharpie and make crosshairs on those intervals listed. Just have a solid aiming point. KISS principle, Keep It Simple, Son.
This will be much cheaper than a new barrel...

ISS

 

[Pareto]

Let me elaborate on my setup. I have a used Kelbly panda setup for Heavy Varmint with a 24 inch Hart barrel. I found out that the chamber was a bit too tight for a no neck turn 272 so I had Wilson modify their full length bushing die so that 1/3 of the fired cases I resized would no longer have issues when chambering. I have over 1000 Euber 68 fb bullets that I mostly shoot and have a handful of factory Berger 68s also.

I think one of my mistakes was trying to free recoil the gun. Given the recoil, it didn't work. I started getting 3s more frequently once I held the gun down firmly. I am used to shooting other guns with a full bench rest stock like my Vudoo, 2500x, or custom 223 AI. So far I've found N135 to do a little better; than N133 with the 68s.

I've only had the new Wilson die for a week or so and am recovering from illness so will go back to experimenting and learning to shoot with the gun after this week (I hope).

I use a 10-50x scope at 100 yards with a Mini X front rest and rear bag. Since I don't compete, i am also thinking of swapping out the stock.

 

[Frankr]

Sounds like you are on the right track. I will also throw in a really good barrel cleaning. I know neck turning sucks but if you are fighting a tight neck and trying to modify your die. I honestly think turning and the proper bushing and even experimenting with different bushings and seating depths could get you the results you are after. Plus I really have never had good results with N 133-135 in my BR’s. Try a different powder, might surprise you. I also always had better accuracy with CCI 450’s. Always.

 

[Frankr]

I have a lot of stories. I’ll share this one. My first 6XC. I studied burn rate charts, case volume ect. I came up with ram shot hunter. I still have a 8lb jug. So I tune up a 105 at 200 yards. It worked as I suspected. This was a long time ago and I can’t remember exact details. So I was shooting .400-.550 5 shot groups at 200 yards. 3,150 fps. Really low ES. So I built my drop wind drift chart. Ran a target up the hollow. 700 yards I put a white paper plate on the backer. Had a large backer lined with clean roll paper. I dialed it, I tried everything and couldn’t even touch the backer. I was dumbfounded. I’ve done this many time. I don’t know what was going on. I talked to a few guys, told them everything. They said what powder RS Hunter. They said go back and load H4350. So I did. My 200 yard groups were 1.0-1.25. 3,050 fps. I built my chart, ran the plate. Hit it first shot. Shot a 10 shot 3.5” group. I never shot that powder again. I’ve said one day when I feel like playing around I’m going to revisit that load and try it again. I never have.

To add to this. I was able to tune the H4350 load by case preparation. Norma brass no turn. I have a min clearance NK. I did everything that could be done. Including anealing the shoulder and neck. Seating depths and powder adjustments. I got the 1.0-1.25 down to .300-.400 at 200 yards. I still was tough to beat 3.5” at 700

 

[Murray Brook]

@Pareto
Not sure this will help but I have a 6 BR Norma built on a Rem 700 SA. It has a JC Custom 26" 4 groove 10 twist barrel chambered with a no-turn zero FB Manson reamer. For the first 600 rds of barrel life it agged in the high 1's low 2's. Now at 1900 rds it shoots in the high 2's. I get this accuracy with 3 different bullets . One is the 64 gr Berger , a 64 gr Stinger ( custom bullet), and the other with , of all bullets, the 58 gr Barnes Varmintor. The best powders I have used with the 64 gr bullets have been AR-Comp ( 3400 ft/sec) and N-135 at 3450 ft/sec. The 58 Barnes give me great accuracy at slightly under 3600 ft/sec. The CCI 450 is the preferred primer.
I also have a Sako 6mm PPC USA factory rifle. With it I generally get groups in the mid 2's.

​

 

[Frankr]

I have good results with most powders in the 6BR. With light bullets. Accuracy wise. A light 28-28.5 gr load oh H322 with a 68 gr
H335,H4895. My favorite was RL10 30.5 grs of RL10 in my 14T BR’s out shot everything. I have shot a lot of N135 and feel it was hit or miss. I never had good luck with it.

 

[Carl S]

One of my 6BR's was not so keen on N135
Krieger barrel,accurized Rem action,ptg bolt,McMillan stock jewel trigger.269NK..all the whistles and bells.i loaded some Varget and it was like switching a light on.groups shrunk to benchrest accuracy.consistently tiny groups.N135 should have been good with 80grn bullets.in this barrel it's not so..some thing's aren't set in stone.

 

[Clancy]

Try N135 in 3 shot groups from 8 in to 8 off .002 at a time with a federal primer. I run my 68s at a measly 3350, and they shoot incredible.