I want to build a custom Varmint\paper puncher am thinking of a 6BR or a 250 AI, I have never had either I would appreciate any suggestions and also good bullet weights for either. I am thinking midrange varmint 2-400 yards and 100-200 yard target shooting. informally. not for competition I am going to build it off a Rem 700VLS
6BR or 22-250 AI
- Thread starter nofun1
- Start date
I'll have to agree with Catshooter here. I used to build a lot of 22-250AI rifles, back in the 90's, but with the advent of Lapua brass and the abundance of good 6mm bullets, I find myself building more 6 and 22 BR varmint rifles. I even put a 22BR barrel on my old 22-250. Had a great time with it last June in the PD towns.
Hey Folks,DocEd said:
I'm brand new here and time for first post. Since I hope everyone is here to help and not laugh at newbies, I have a question that may give you some idea of how much I'm acquainted with the technical part of our sport. Here's my question: What does the twist have to do with the weight of the bullet being fired? Since I'm also about to get into reloading my .22-.250's I would like to know all this. I know that probably the thought is that I should know all of this stuff before I even think of reloading but I don't. I'm looking at learning all of this bullet weight and consequence to the twist and powderload and all of that as one learning experience. When I learn what the twist rate, for example, means as related to the weight of the bullet that I'll use, that makes all the sense in the world to me as being totally necessary to know in order to get the most accuracy out of the round that I'm going to load. I've been shooting for over fifty-five years and am now just getting into learning more about it than pointing downrange and pulling the trigger.
Anyhow, any constructive advice will be very much appreciated. Also, what is the main thought here as to the better type of reloading equipment. Since I've already ordered some Hornady stuff,what is the thought on that brand? Thanks to all and I'll be back in about three hours. Got to go get a Christmas tree.
Regards..............Oleshot
Ackman
Gold $$ Contributor
nofun1 said:
They're both terrific. The 22-250AI shoots 50's real fast - well over 4200 - and is real accurate. The 6BR is ungodly accurate and it's just stupid easy to to make one shoot. Plus it burns about 7-8gr less powder. I have several 22-250AI's and don't plan on getting rid of them, it's a great cartridge. But for your circumstances I'd go with the 6BR.
Actually the 22BR will about equal a standard 22-250. Mine does. Accuracy loads with 50's are 3800+ to 3950 depending on the powder/bullet combination. With a std 22-250, the absolute fastest ACCURACY load I've ever had shooting 50's was 3925 and that was a real surprise....most are slower than that.
Except for maybe feeding from a magazine and the price of brass, having a 6BR there's no reason to mess with a std. 22-250. The 6BR shoots 55-58gr bullets faster than a 22-250 will shoot 22cal 55's, and use less powder. In fact it'll shoot 55-58's nearly as fast as the 22BR shoots 50's. And those light Nosler/Hornady 6mm bullets have the same or higher BC as a 22/55gr bullet. The 6BR is an awesome cartridge and easily replaces a 22-250.
Uh, Thanks, Catshooter. Since my wife has two cats I won't ask how you got your handle.CatShooter said:
On the twist issue; and keep in mind that I am seriously trying to learn here, why does the longer twist mean faster and why does that mean heavier. Is it because the faster twist sort of gives the bullet a "head start" speed wise out of the muzzle and how does the twist determine the maximum length of the bullet? I mean what does the twist itself, whether long or short, have to do with the actual bullet length. Or, put another way, what difference would it make with a 14" twist, which from what you say is a "faster" twist, if the bullet was short or long.??
Once I get the basic idea in my mind I won't be asking these elementary, to you, questions. I am just having a problem figuring out the logic. Maybe I'll wait awhile before I get into reloading. I didn't realize that one thing had so much to do with the other. I kinda thought I just slammed powder and lead into a case and went shooting.
Also, thanks for the easy initiation. I thought I may have to out and slap a cop and steal his cuffs or bring back the cannon from the town square. Now, if I could just understand this twist stuff so easily..........
Forum Boss
Administrator
Oleshot
Think revolutions per minute,RPM)
Bullets stabilize gyroscopically, just like a child's toy top.
Bullets that are short and fat can stabilize with fewer RPMs.
Bullets that are long and narrow need more RPMs to stabilize.
"Fast twist" barrels are called that because, for a given muzzle velocity, the bullet will be SPINNING faster,more RPMs) as it leaves the barrel from, say, a 1:9" twist barrel vs. a 1:14" twist.
The other thing to understand is that bullet RPM is a factor of TWO things:
1. Twist Rate of Barrel
2. Speed of Bullet,the more quickly the bullet travels through the rifling, the more 'spin' is imparted to it. Hence a faster-moving bullet leaves the barrel with more RPM than a slower-moving bullet,from the same barrel).
Think revolutions per minute,RPM)
Bullets stabilize gyroscopically, just like a child's toy top.
Bullets that are short and fat can stabilize with fewer RPMs.
Bullets that are long and narrow need more RPMs to stabilize.
"Fast twist" barrels are called that because, for a given muzzle velocity, the bullet will be SPINNING faster,more RPMs) as it leaves the barrel from, say, a 1:9" twist barrel vs. a 1:14" twist.
The other thing to understand is that bullet RPM is a factor of TWO things:
1. Twist Rate of Barrel
2. Speed of Bullet,the more quickly the bullet travels through the rifling, the more 'spin' is imparted to it. Hence a faster-moving bullet leaves the barrel with more RPM than a slower-moving bullet,from the same barrel).
In case you didnt know, A twist rate of say 1:10" says the bullet travels,10) inches for the bullet to make,1) full revolution in the barrel. Faster cartriges can compensate a little for slower twist rates. I dont need quite as much twist on my 22-250 as I do for my .223 to stabalize the same bullets.
Preacher
Gold $$ Contributor
Originally Posted by Preacher
A 22br will do about the same as a 22/250 with lots less powder involved, and way more accuracy, and the barrel will last lots longer...
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Posted by CatShooter
The 22BR will not come even close to the standard 22-250.
The 22-250 is 25% larger, and will deliver ~25% more energy.
Your comparison is like comparing the 30-06 to the 300 Win Mag.
----------------------------------------------------
I said the 22 br will do ABOUT the same as a 22/250 !!!!
A 180 grain bullet out of a 06 is only about 200 fps slower than the same bullet out of a 300 WinMag, so what's your point, or do you just like jerking my chain ???
A 22br will do about the same as a 22/250 with lots less powder involved, and way more accuracy, and the barrel will last lots longer...
--------------------------------------------------
Posted by CatShooter
The 22BR will not come even close to the standard 22-250.
The 22-250 is 25% larger, and will deliver ~25% more energy.
Your comparison is like comparing the 30-06 to the 300 Win Mag.
----------------------------------------------------
I said the 22 br will do ABOUT the same as a 22/250 !!!!
A 180 grain bullet out of a 06 is only about 200 fps slower than the same bullet out of a 300 WinMag, so what's your point, or do you just like jerking my chain ???
wnroscoe
I'm with Catshooter and DocEd, the 6mmBR is hard to beat for a day to day shooter when barrel life is questioned. I personally would go with the 8 twist but, hey, I like the 105's. With a 10 or 12 twist and the lighter bullets, that thing would hammer a varmint.
HTSmith
Silver $$ Contributor
I'm no expert, but my 6br, 8 twist shoots the heck out of 75 Gr Hornady vmaxes. The only bullet more accurate for me is the 80 Gr fowler. It also shoots the 105-107's good but they are more finnicky. Unless you are shooting short range benchrest, I don't see the need to limit the range of bullets you can shoot by getting a slower twist.
Preacher
Gold $$ Contributor
Does any one on this forum believe that a 22BR will come close to 22/250 velocity's
with less powder like I mentioned at the start of this post ?
I would hate to have anyone think it was blatantly untrue, or that it is bogus information I'm giving out....
I shoot both calibers mentioned and MY rifles tell me there is only a couple hundred FPS difference between the two using about 4 grains less powder..... and the 22br is more accurate than the 22/250 is.........
[Edited by Moderator]
with less powder like I mentioned at the start of this post ?
I would hate to have anyone think it was blatantly untrue, or that it is bogus information I'm giving out....
I shoot both calibers mentioned and MY rifles tell me there is only a couple hundred FPS difference between the two using about 4 grains less powder..... and the 22br is more accurate than the 22/250 is.........
[Edited by Moderator]
Ackman
Gold $$ Contributor
Preacher said:
I do, because mine does. At least with 50's, which is the only bullet weight that gets shot in either of those guns. Velocities are pretty much equal. It's stupid easy to make the 22BR shoot well and depending on which powder, best accuracy can be anywhere from a little slower to a little faster than my fastest accuracy 22-250 loads.....they just are.
Now read what you are writing kitty !! If you have ever loaded for the 22-250 you know that you cannot get it to shoot at max, i have never had one or loaded for one that will shoot up there !! The 22BR on the other hand will and does shoot very good at that upper range and alot better than the 22-250 does . If you back the 22-250 down so it will shoot you are getting real close in to the 22BR !! Not to mention better brass and all together a better cartridge . I think that was the Preacher's point to start with !! Dont you?? You can read reloading manuals till you are blue in the face and pick out something that looks good but that dont always make it better . Anyone that has had the 22-250 and the 22BR both can tell you that the 22BR will do it ALL BETTER !! :tounge:
Ackman
Gold $$ Contributor
What a stupid nitpicky argument. The only real way to compare these two cartridges is by usable accurate velocity, not by what's in some loading manual. But ok.....playing the "amount of powder used" game.
My 22BR/50BK:
VV133--29.0-30.0gr=3830-3940fps-- Went to 4038fps but with sticky bolt lift.
RL15---31.0-32.4gr=3697-3895fps--most accurate, some groups below .100"
W748---33.0-34.5gr=3821-4004--consistently in the .3"s
My 22-250/50BK:
RL15---37.5gr=3926-Sporter barrel-Most accurate load 3 shot groups in .3"s-also the fastest 22-250 I've had.
Obviously VV133 isn't right for a 22-250. And 748's supposed to be good in that cartridge but it didn't work well in my rifle. However RL15 is best in both of them....the 22BR equals the 22-250 velocity wise with about 5gr less of that same powder. Maybe it's a more efficient case shape, maybe it's working at higher pressure, maybe-maybe-maybe. Doesn't matter and I really don't care why it is, just that it is.
My 22BR/50BK:
VV133--29.0-30.0gr=3830-3940fps-- Went to 4038fps but with sticky bolt lift.
RL15---31.0-32.4gr=3697-3895fps--most accurate, some groups below .100"
W748---33.0-34.5gr=3821-4004--consistently in the .3"s
My 22-250/50BK:
RL15---37.5gr=3926-Sporter barrel-Most accurate load 3 shot groups in .3"s-also the fastest 22-250 I've had.
Obviously VV133 isn't right for a 22-250. And 748's supposed to be good in that cartridge but it didn't work well in my rifle. However RL15 is best in both of them....the 22BR equals the 22-250 velocity wise with about 5gr less of that same powder. Maybe it's a more efficient case shape, maybe it's working at higher pressure, maybe-maybe-maybe. Doesn't matter and I really don't care why it is, just that it is.
Ackman
Gold $$ Contributor
Preacher's experience may be similar to mine. My best ever 22-250 does 3925 with 37.5gr powder, very fast for 50's and over max in some manuals. In the 22BR, accuracy loads are 3850-3940 with one powder and 3800-3900 with another, which is high-end 22/250 country. And it's using 5-7gr less. That's getting the same velocity with a lot less powder....it's what the original statement said, and it's what you're saying isn't. Throw in all the extraneous BS you want, try to spin it any way you want, but it won't change things.
Guys, I don't have a dog in this show but this dude,Catshooter)has forgot more about handloading than most will ever learn. You may not agree with what he is saying but I doubt if you are going to convince him that he is wrong. He has been around the block a couple of times and has a tremendous amount of knowledge when it comes to the shooting game in more ways than one. Think about this. You may need to ask him a question later on that his answer will coinside with what you believe and make perfectly good sense just like he has done many times for a lot of guys on here. So, it just makes sense that if you disagree with him, fine. Don't run him off of the web-site because he is an asset to it with no doubt. Just my opinion and yep I know everybody has one. Bill
Forum Boss
Administrator
This thread is going to disappear in its entirety if the harsh exchange of comments and finger-pointing continues.
In a custom action with proper throating, the 22BR IS capable of surprising performance. Much like the 30BR, it enjoys an efficiency advantage over more traditional long skinny cases. Sierra Manuals are quite conservative -- they won't give you the definitive answer as to what a 22BR can do. That said, the 22-250 does have a real edge in case capacity, but you can't buy Lapua or RWS brass for it and that makes a real difference in real world performance. For this reason, John Adams and some others have tried a 22-6.5x47 Lapua wildcat, and yes that case will thump both a 22BR,Lapua Brass), and a 22-250 in Remington or Winchester brass.
There is also the 22-6XC with a Norma brass option.
Both sides in the debate here have made some valid points. Both the 22BR and 22-250 have their merits. I think if we stick to reciting actual loads, rather than exchanging "I'm right... you're an idiot" type comments, it will be easier to keep things civil and provide helpful information.
The reality is that I honestly think most people looking for 22-250 factory-load type velocities will find they can come very close with a 22BR and handloads, and they will have the advantage of better brass in a cartridge that is probably easier to tune. Plus you have access to the really nice reloading accessories that are available only for PPC and BR cases,such as Harrell's dies).
The Hornady Factory 22-250 Ammo has the following specs:
40gr V-Max 4150 fps Muzzle Velocity
50gr V-Max 3800 fps Muzzle Velocity
55gr V-Max 3680 fps Muzzle Velocity
As noted above 3600 fps is quite "do-able" with a 55-grainer in a 22BR, likewise 3700+ fps with a 50-grainer in a 22BR. Yes, even with factory loads, the 22-250 has an edge, but it's not as much as one might think given the difference in case capacity. And some guys are getting higher numbers with their 22BRs than I mention.
The difference in velocities would be greater, of course, with hot hand-loads in a 22-250, and especially with a 22-6XC or 22-6.5x47. But the point remains that a 22BR with 40-60gr bullets, doesn't give up much in speed to typical 22-250 factory loads.
In a custom action with proper throating, the 22BR IS capable of surprising performance. Much like the 30BR, it enjoys an efficiency advantage over more traditional long skinny cases. Sierra Manuals are quite conservative -- they won't give you the definitive answer as to what a 22BR can do. That said, the 22-250 does have a real edge in case capacity, but you can't buy Lapua or RWS brass for it and that makes a real difference in real world performance. For this reason, John Adams and some others have tried a 22-6.5x47 Lapua wildcat, and yes that case will thump both a 22BR,Lapua Brass), and a 22-250 in Remington or Winchester brass.
There is also the 22-6XC with a Norma brass option.
Both sides in the debate here have made some valid points. Both the 22BR and 22-250 have their merits. I think if we stick to reciting actual loads, rather than exchanging "I'm right... you're an idiot" type comments, it will be easier to keep things civil and provide helpful information.
The reality is that I honestly think most people looking for 22-250 factory-load type velocities will find they can come very close with a 22BR and handloads, and they will have the advantage of better brass in a cartridge that is probably easier to tune. Plus you have access to the really nice reloading accessories that are available only for PPC and BR cases,such as Harrell's dies).
The Hornady Factory 22-250 Ammo has the following specs:
40gr V-Max 4150 fps Muzzle Velocity
50gr V-Max 3800 fps Muzzle Velocity
55gr V-Max 3680 fps Muzzle Velocity
As noted above 3600 fps is quite "do-able" with a 55-grainer in a 22BR, likewise 3700+ fps with a 50-grainer in a 22BR. Yes, even with factory loads, the 22-250 has an edge, but it's not as much as one might think given the difference in case capacity. And some guys are getting higher numbers with their 22BRs than I mention.
The difference in velocities would be greater, of course, with hot hand-loads in a 22-250, and especially with a 22-6XC or 22-6.5x47. But the point remains that a 22BR with 40-60gr bullets, doesn't give up much in speed to typical 22-250 factory loads.
Jeezzz...Back to the subject. 6br vs 22-250ai.
If you want fast vel`s go with the 22-250ai,it`s faster than the 22-250 and the 22br)
You wont see the bbl life you would with a 6br or acuracy,as good) but what matters is you get what you want. I burned out a factory 22-250 bbl in under 1k rds P.D. shootting in one summer, rebarreled to a 6br and never looked back... Way better for high volume shooting, if thats what you want to do. Compare the bc`s, ballistics, wind charts of the two and you should have a better idea of what you need.
My advice would be to get a 1:10t 6br if you want to shoot out to 400yrds, you can use bullets up to about 90grs and it would work for lighter pills also. Past that, 1:8t so you can shoot up to 108grs. Try to get an upper end barrel too...
If you want fast vel`s go with the 22-250ai,it`s faster than the 22-250 and the 22br)
You wont see the bbl life you would with a 6br or acuracy,as good) but what matters is you get what you want. I burned out a factory 22-250 bbl in under 1k rds P.D. shootting in one summer, rebarreled to a 6br and never looked back... Way better for high volume shooting, if thats what you want to do. Compare the bc`s, ballistics, wind charts of the two and you should have a better idea of what you need.My advice would be to get a 1:10t 6br if you want to shoot out to 400yrds, you can use bullets up to about 90grs and it would work for lighter pills also. Past that, 1:8t so you can shoot up to 108grs. Try to get an upper end barrel too...
Forum Boss
Administrator
Donovan makes a good point about gun to gun differences, bbl length and chrony variations. We've observed up to 80 fps differences in average velocities off the same round fired through two different makes of chronos set up in parallel.
The bullet traveling through the more distant chrono will be going very slightly slower, but that didn't account for the large observed variances. It's mostly a brand to brand thing and a unit to unit inconsistency. Also, slight differences in skyscreen angles and sensor placement will cause changes in observed vels.
The bullet traveling through the more distant chrono will be going very slightly slower, but that didn't account for the large observed variances. It's mostly a brand to brand thing and a unit to unit inconsistency. Also, slight differences in skyscreen angles and sensor placement will cause changes in observed vels.
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