6 dasher Norma Fl sizer die

[Alex Wheeler]

Harrel

Alex what die do you like for the .4715. mines actually.4714 so a ten/k difference with a oal of 1.56? Lapua brass....

Harrell's D3-D4

 

[rcw3]

Update on Harrells D4 Dasher die - -

Just to "get it straight from the horse's mouth" I called Harrells today to buy one of their D4 dies to test one out for myself.

Some background here - - I have known Harrells for a long time and have spoken to Lynwood a number of times over the years. Harrells has also made contracted for parts for us too over the years so we have done business together. They are respectable, honest and honorable.

I am not too keen on the idea of pitting us against Harrells for the sale of our Dasher dies and from my perspective, a good relationship with Harrells is worth more than any Dasher dies sales we might make - - so if this thread is going to evolve into a "dog fight", or one of those "we vs they" schisms - - buy your dies from Harrells and I won't lose any sleep over it.

Back to the D4 die - - here's the scoop - -

I called and told Harrells I wanted to buy a D4 Dasher die - - there was a pause on the other end of the phone and the reply was on the order of "are you sure you want to do that, you really should send in your fired brass so we can check it out".

I asked why, and the exact words were it's a "very tight die" and "in many cases it overworks the brass".

I still purchased the die - - so I am now a proud owner of a "very tight" D4 die too! That's fine, with all the stuff I am involved in I am sure I will use it at some time or I will put it up used on the forum here and lose a couple bucks as my tuition payment for the learning experience.

So is the D4 die a bad die to buy and use? Not at all - - Donovan and Tom swear by it and it works perfectly for them in their application - - excellent! The other side of it is that may not be the ideal die for all applications.

Like all things in life it's a matter of striking the proper balance for your particular situation!

Be well and enjoy your shooting!

Robert

P.S. A comment on numbers - - just because a print for a reamer (whether it's a chamber reamer or a die reamer or some other reamer) gives a particular number on the print (e.g. .4708" at the .200" line) does not mean your chamber will measure that - - and it is almost certainly it will not - - some possible issues with chambers for example:
a. Stated tolerances on the print - - most chamber prints have a +.0005" tolerance (so your reamer may likely be "fat" to start with - like .4713" is still within print spec at .200" for a .4708" stated dimension). When I have had reamers certified, most of the time they are within tolerances, but frequently more than the minimum number shown on the print;
b. Tolerances beyond the print - - unfortunately far too regular an occurrence - - for example, ever have a chamber reamer cut with just one flute - - yup that one is likely "high" and guess what - - your chamber is probably going to be "fat" for it;
c. Play in the spindle in the lathe - - there has to be some for things to spin - - how much - - or wear in the tailstock of a lathe - - and that's essentially induced wobble and play into the cutting process and that can add to whether your chamber is "fat";
d. Some of the best of the best in chambering will tell you flat out that a tool that measures a particular number typically won't cut a hole at that number but that it will be slightly larger as a result of the cutting process itself (e.g. sharpness of tooling, carbide cuts different than HSS, depends on the steel being cut, the cutting oil used, etc., etc.) - - net result - - more "fatness" possibility;
e. Final finishing and polishing of chamber - - is the chamber polished - - yes, of course it is - - what was it done with and how much and how hard - - more "fatness" in a chamber - - maybe only 2-3 tenths or so but add up all the extras and that can make a real difference. If when your chamber was cut by your barrel smith did the reamer "chatter" (and that happens too - - don't know a smith that has not talked about it) there may have been a lot of polishing of your chamber.

Brass has "spring back" so sitting around measuring brass can be helpful but that's not the be all and end all either since the amount and nature of the "spring back" is not something easily ascertained and it changes depending on the lot and brass material, the hardness of it, etc.

 

[bugman]

rcw3

I would appreciate your opinion on the accuracy of a chamber cast to provide the actual finished chamber dimensions and eliminate the sources for error that you listed in a. through e., above. My own experience is that a good cast can be more reliable, but the problem is having the equipment and skill to measure the cast accurately.

Thanks

Jack

 

[rcw3]

Harrells D4 Die Update

The new Harrells D4 Dasher die came in today that was purchased for testing.

1. Harrells was correct when they said the die is "very tight" (an absolutely correct description of the die from my perspective - - the one I received also measures .4645" at the bottom inside just past the chamfer);

2. I re-sized some of the new Norma Dasher brass that was shot with a hotter load in a new Bartlein barrel (5R rifled) that was chambered a few weeks ago with the new Shiraz/Kiff reamer that I purchased from Bullets.com (print shows a .4708" dia. at the .200" line).

3. There was rather significant back pressure on the press handle when I re-sized the brass cases due to some significant squeeze down of the brass.

Personally, I would not use that die for my day to day resizing of brass, nor would I recommend it for the normal re-sizing of brass for most of the shooters that we deal with for the Dasher - - it's just too darn tight. I am certain that if we sold dies like that for peoples' day to day resizing we would have a fair number of returns by people who feel it "overworks the brass" (just like Harrells indicated).

IMO - - the D4 die is fine as a "small base" die because of how hard it sizes the base.

If you're a numbers person, take the .4708" measurement at the .200" line of the chamber, minus the .4645" inside diameter of the die which is very close to the same place on the case = .0063" squeeze down (any way you cut it - - that's some serious squeeze down).

FWIW - - the Redding Dasher die I have that I have used for years measures .4665" inside at the base - - not nearly as hard running brass through the press with it and, to date, never had a problem adequately sizing brass for many years with many different chambers (i.e. all of reamers had stated .4708" print diameter at .200" forward of the bolt face).

Recommendation for most of us: If you're going to shoot the Dasher, you're not going in this "on the cheap" anyway, so consider something like a D4 die as an add on "small base die" if you have a tight chamber set up or if you just want a "belt and suspenders".

Regardless - - enjoy your shooting!

Robert

 

[Cool Tool]

Harrells D4 Die Update

The new Harrells D4 Dasher die came in today that was purchased for testing.

1. Harrells was correct when they said the die is "very tight" (an absolutely correct description of the die from my perspective - - the one I received also measures .4645" at the bottom inside just past the chamfer);

2. I re-sized some of the new Norma Dasher brass that was shot with a hotter load in a new Bartlein barrel (5R rifled) that was chambered a few weeks ago with the new Shiraz/Kiff reamer that I purchased from Bullets.com (print shows a .4708" dia. at the .200" line).

3. There was rather significant back pressure on the press handle when I re-sized the brass cases due to some significant squeeze down of the brass.

Personally, I would not use that die for my day to day resizing of brass, nor would I recommend it for the normal re-sizing of brass for most of the shooters that we deal with for the Dasher - - it's just too darn tight. I am certain that if we sold dies like that for peoples' day to day resizing we would have a fair number of returns by people who feel it "overworks the brass" (just like Harrells indicated).

IMO - - the D4 die is fine as a "small base" die because of how hard it sizes the base.

If you're a numbers person, take the .4708" measurement at the .200" line of the chamber, minus the .4645" inside diameter of the die which is very close to the same place on the case = .0063" squeeze down (any way you cut it - - that's some serious squeeze down).

FWIW - - the Redding Dasher die I have that I have used for years measures .4665" inside at the base - - not nearly as hard running brass through the press with it and, to date, never had a problem adequately sizing brass for many years with many different chambers (i.e. all of reamers had stated .4708" print diameter at .200" forward of the bolt face).

Recommendation for most of us: If you're going to shoot the Dasher, you're not going in this "on the cheap" anyway, so consider something like a D4 die as an add on "small base die" if you have a tight chamber set up or if you just want a "belt and suspenders".

Regardless - - enjoy your shooting!

Robert

Not meaning any disrespect but I would like to know what you come up with at the 200 line after you size that brass in question with that d4 die please I am think about getting one.

 

[Phil]

Not meaning any disrespect but I would like to know what you come up with at the 200 line after you size that brass in question with that d4 die

This^^^^^^

Please.

 

[rcw3]

Not meaning any disrespect but I would like to know what you come up with at the 200 line after you size that brass in question with that d4 die please I am think about getting one.

None taken - - a lot of what I do, I do because I love shooting and providing support and information to shooters - - not just because one of the businesses I am also involved with sells shooting accessories and products.

The .200" line is about .035" forward of the web of the brass on this Norma Dasher brass, but so far I have yet to see anyone with a measuring device on this thread that can accurately measure the .200" line on the brass. The micrometers we see pictures of on this thread are way crude for that purpose regardless of their 5 decimal point readouts, mainly because the anvils and the spindles of them are way too big to get any type of line readout at that location.

With a set of old fashioned vernier calipers, I honestly think one can get a more accurate reading than with a micrometer mainly because you can measure exactly where you need to measure. All I have with me right now (besides a micrometer) is a set of Mitutoyo calipers with a digital readout that measures to the closest 5 tenths (i.e. .0005").

The last picture posted above by Tom has the web, the .200" line and forward of the .200" line all in the area encompassed by the anvil and the spindle of the micrometer, so what you are really getting as a measurement is whatever is the "fattest" of that whole thing.

So what do you want and how do you want it measured?

 

[Gabe22BR]

Your correct Robert.

I use a D3 dasher die, and it measures .471 at that point. I've used calipers, and a Mic.

 

[Cool Tool]

Thanks RCW for your response very informative.

 

[rcw3]

Thanks RCW for your response very informative.

Yeah - I guess it was a long worded answer without giving what you asked for - my apologies.

.4695" measured with the calipers at the .200" line with Norma brass after 1 firing with a load hot enough to loosen primer pockets, then re-sized with the D4 die.

3x fired and re-sized Norma brass with D4 die .470" at .200" line.

Interesting tid bit - - FWIW, the extra .002" squeeze down of the D4 die gets about .001" more permanent brass diameter compression over my Redding die - seems like there's a lot of spring back when pushing down in those diameters - - need to push a lot harder to get just a bit more in results.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Bottom line, the die dimensions do not mean anything. The size of the case that comes out of the die does. I have never had the web of a case grow larger than the body of the case. If my reamer measures .4714, then so does the chamber, and then brass will measure just under that if fired with a hot load. Tom's method is a great way to get an extremely close measurement at the .2" line. The Harrell's D3-D4 are excellent for common dasher chambers. "Overworking the brass" gets way over used, we are not talking about a factory die that is squeezing the case .008", we are talking about a die that probably sizes the case another thousandth more than your die.

 

[rcw3]

What comes across my path is apparently different than what comes across yours - -

Maybe people thought I was being "nit picky" earlier when I made a point about how brass is measured at the .200" line but I did so because there's an issue.

I have various pieces of Dasher brass from customers where the web diameter is greater than the body diameter of the case after resizing. While you indicate you have never seen this, in my experience, that is a somewhat common phenomenon out there. If I measure those cases in the way you suggest above "is a great way" it would give me a false reading of the .200" line dimension (like .0025" - .003" off - - as in "fat", even with the D4 die). Seems to me if we are measuring the .200" line, we should be doing just that and not using a tool that's inadequate for the job or a method that includes other parts of a case that might skew the results. In your die video on your website, you suggest that a certain die that resized the brass was an inadequate die when, in fact, I have customer fired brass here that I just ran through a D4 die and it measures .4695" at the .200" line but .4725" at the web and if I use your approved measuring method I would get a reading of .4725" which would suggest the D4 die is inadequate and does not size the brass sufficiently, when in fact it sized the .200" line down to .4695".

 

[expiper]

the answer to the OP's ? is ,,,the resize die at the .200 line should be aprox the dia of the virgin brass and the chamer/reamer should be aprox .003" bigger,,,it these dims are adhered to the ctgs sholuld extract and resize and rechamber effortlessly ,,,,that is what is refeerd to as "working in concert"....if the ctgs go in the chamber with difficulty then the resize die (or the bushing in a Harrells type die)is too large,,,,go smaller till the ctgs go in the rifle without rocking it in the bags,,,,make the ctgs fit the chamber ,not some guage or gadget,,,Roger

 

[Alex Wheeler]

What comes across my path is apparently different than what comes across yours - -

Maybe people thought I was being "nit picky" earlier when I made a point about how brass is measured at the .200" line but I did so because there's an issue.

I have various pieces of Dasher brass from customers where the web diameter is greater than the body diameter of the case after resizing. While you indicate you have never seen this, in my experience, that is a somewhat common phenomenon out there. If I measure those cases in the way you suggest above "is a great way" it would give me a false reading of the .200" line dimension (like .0025" - .003" off - - as in "fat", even with the D4 die). Seems to me if we are measuring the .200" line, we should be doing just that and not using a tool that's inadequate for the job or a method that includes other parts of a case that might skew the results. In your die video on your website, you suggest that a certain die that resized the brass was an inadequate die when, in fact, I have customer fired brass here that I just ran through a D4 die and it measures .4695" at the .200" line but .4725" at the web and if I use your approved measuring method I would get a reading of .4725" which would suggest the D4 die is inadequate and does not size the brass sufficiently, when in fact it sized the .200" line down to .4695".

I think what you mean when you say web is actually the rim. Because the web area just above the extractor groove starts about .160" from the bolt face. If you are seeing .003" from the .160" to the .200" line you have issues. Note, Tom's first picture is not the correct way to do it, the last one is. Who cares what the rim measures?

 

[Cool Tool]

What comes across my path is apparently different than what comes across yours - -

Maybe people thought I was being "nit picky" earlier when I made a point about how brass is measured at the .200" line but I did so because there's an issue.

I have various pieces of Dasher brass from customers where the web diameter is greater than the body diameter of the case after resizing. While you indicate you have never seen this, in my experience, that is a somewhat common phenomenon out there. If I measure those cases in the way you suggest above "is a great way" it would give me a false reading of the .200" line dimension (like .0025" - .003" off - - as in "fat", even with the D4 die). Seems to me if we are measuring the .200" line, we should be doing just that and not using a tool that's inadequate for the job or a method that includes other parts of a case that might skew the results. In your die video on your website, you suggest that a certain die that resized the brass was an inadequate die when, in fact, I have customer fired brass here that I just ran through a D4 die and it measures .4695" at the .200" line but .4725" at the web and if I use your approved measuring method I would get a reading of .4725" which would suggest the D4 die is inadequate and does not size the brass sufficiently, when in fact it sized the .200" line down to .4695".

If you take a set of one inch mikes an measure somewhere close to the 200 line that is good enough for anyone to manage there brass you don't need special mikes to measure that area I have blade mikes whish give me more precise measurements but not necasaray brass management is more important.

 

[DTubb]

If you take a set of one inch mikes an measure somewhere close to the 200 line that is good enough for anyone to manage there brass you don't need special mikes to measure that area I have blade mikes whish give me more precise measurements but not necasaray brass management is more important.

if I WERE GOING TO SHOOT THE 6xcx DASHER AND RESIZE THE BRASS CORRECTLY - IMO

I WOULD BE BUYING THE SSS 6XC RESIZING DIE AND CUTTING OFF THE APPROPRIATE DIFFERENCE IN OVERAL CASE LENGTH.
THE 6XC DIE IS MADE FROM S7 TOOL STEEL NOT A SURFACE HARDENED ALTERNATIVE.
THE 6XC DIE ALLOWS THE USER TO EFFECTIVELY RESIZE THE BASE OF THE CASE -- IMO ALL OTHERS DO NOT
ADDITIONALLY THE 6XC DIE SET RESIZES THE FULL LENGTH OF THE NECK WITH THE INTEGRAL NECK SHOULDER BUSHING - ALL OTHER LEAVE A SMALL PORTION OF THE BASE OF THE NECK COMPLETELY UN SIZED.
DTUBB

 

[Sheldon N]

Isn't the 6XC a 30 degree shoulder? How is that going to work for the 6 Dasher with the 40 degree shoulder, even if you were to shorten the die?

 

[lloydx2]

Roberts right .Why would you measure with a tool that has 1/4 inch of contact area over
a tapered surface? That's what a blade mike is for.
I don't think Kiff has ever cut a dasher reamer that's not .470.8 @ .200 ?
And all the other names do the same. This was for Lapua brass of coarse
But like Robert said there is a thousand things that can change the diameter (out sizing) of the cut chamber
Its no mystery either. That's a whole another thread.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Roberts right .Why would you measure with a tool that has 1/4 inch of contact area over
a tapered surface? That's what a blade mike is for.
I don't think Kiff has ever cut a dasher reamer that's not .470.8 @ .200 ?
And all the other names do the same. This was for Lapua brass of coarse
But like Robert said there is a thousand things that can change the diameter (out sizing) of the cut chamber
Its no mystery either. That's a whole another thread.

Because we are only looking for the largest diameter.

 

[dmoran]

Because we are only looking for the largest diameter.

+1 ..... exactly !.!.!

All that is needed to be measured is the widest part of the brass (near the base/web/.200-line of course) both "before sizing" and "after sizing". It does not take a "blade mic" to get those measurements, and I prefer a micrometer over a blade mic myself, because a micrometer can more accurately find the widest part, verses a blade mic having to be pin pointed on a location for measure, which can lead to error.

A caliper can work as well, but a micrometer is the best measuring tool for the job.
Donovan