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6 dasher Norma Fl sizer die

Plain fact of the matter:

For example, if I shoot the same load out of the same chamber and the only changes are as follows, I will get a different resized "number" each time:

1. Lapua virgin brass
2. Lapua brass that's been fired a number of times with hotter loads and the web is out in the .471" diameter range
3. Norma Virgin brass
4. Norma brass that's been fired a number of times with hotter loads and the web is out in the .471" diameter range

Donovan's original question asking for a "number" was a loaded question to which I gave the best answer.

Donovan then followed and didn't like that and wanted a spreadsheet type chart with a whole bunch of data including:

" how many firings on the brass and how hard were they hit (in terms of velocity). What did they expand to at the base/web after each firing, and what did they size back to in the fallow on re-sizing? [The] sized base/web diameters (or at least good estimates of what can be expected from sized cases with your dies) from brass with repeated firings that is well work-hardened (like "clicks" derive from)."

I responded and said it is "not worth it" for me to put all that time into making up some kind of spreadsheet like that.

But what I don't understand is why Donovan asked the question for a "number" in the first place when he already knew the results would vary depending on dimensional and hardness factors - - was that just some kind of "gotcha" type quiz?

I am sorry to say but it seems like this thread has devolved from there - and I apologize if some have found my responses not to their liking or offensive.

Many of us love to shoot and we're passionate about it - - hopefully we keep our passions focused in a productive direction.

Robert
 
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Plain fact of the matter:

For example, if I shoot the same load out of the same chamber and the only changes are as follows, I will get a different resized "number" each time:

1. Lapua virgin brass
2. Lapua brass that's been fired a number of times with hotter loads and the web is out in the .471" diameter range
3. Norma Virgin brass
4. Norma brass that's been fired a number of times with hotter loads and the web is out in the .471" diameter range

Donovan's original question asking for a "number" was a loaded question to which I gave the best answer.

Donovan then followed and didn't like that and wanted a spreadsheet type chart with a whole bunch of data including:

" how many firings on the brass and how hard were they hit (in terms of velocity). What did they expand to at the base/web after each firing, and what did they size back to in the fallow on re-sizing? [The] sized base/web diameters (or at least good estimates of what can be expected from sized cases with your dies) from brass with repeated firings that is well work-hardened (like "clicks" derive from)."

I responded and said it is "not worth it" for me to put all that time into making up some kind of spreadsheet like that.

But what I don't understand is why Donovan asked the question for a "number" in the first place when he already knew the results would vary depending on dimensional and hardness factors - - was that just some kind of "gotcha" type quiz?

I am sorry to say but it seems like this thread has devolved from there - and I apologize if some have found my responses not to their liking or offensive.

Many of us love to shoot and we're passionate about it - - hopefully we keep our passions focused in a productive direction.

Robert
I am reading this discussion you gentlemen are having about all these variants on this norma brass I did not see anything wrong with the question he asked skeetlee is not willing to give out much info about his head sizes at the 200 line so how does he expect to get a die comparable to his chamber my reamer is .4708 at 200 an harrels D3 works very well but I am not exceeding 2970fps with no sizing issues whatsoever I agree you have a lot of experience with these dashers but everbodys loads work differently.
 
I'm appreciating this discourse and learning along the way.
My smith has a "Norma Dasher" reamer on the way, so reckon I'll be figuring stuff out, too, soon enough...

Thanks to all for your input!
 
Tom/Anyone:

Please explain the term "clicker"? I've see in used in 2 Dasher threads now and I honestly don't know what it signifies. TIA!
 
Tom:

Thanks for that explanation. I would like to ask a follow up.

My thoughts have been, and I may very well be wrong, that the resizing die dimensions were tied to the chamber dimensions; not necessarily the brass. And it was my general understanding typical resizing dies like those from Whidden have been working properly with the typical (not saying optimum) Dasher chambers which measured 0.4708" at the 0.200" mark.

Now we have the Norma brass variable. Based on my measurments, I would agree with your statement that the Norma brass is undersized relative to the Lapua brass. I know Shiraz disagrees but I am convinced of that fact.

So while the Norma brass may blow out a little more initially, if the Whidden/Redding/Whoever's die worked with a 0.4708" chamber and Lapua brass, wouldn't it also work with Norma brass assuming the initial fireforming load wasn't excessive?
 
For a true .4708" at .200" chamber (assuming your gunsmiths chambers measure what the reamer does) you will need a #4 Harrell's die to maintain your brass for the long haul. The Whidden sizes too much at the shoulder and not enough at the base. Some may never have an issue if not running top pressures. Robert, if your die is .467 or so at the base it would also be a good option.
 
For a true .4708" at .200" chamber (assuming your gunsmiths chambers measure what the reamer does) you will need a #4 Harrell's die to maintain your brass for the long haul. The Whidden sizes too much at the shoulder and not enough at the base. Some may never have an issue if not running top pressures. Robert, if your die is .467 or so at the base it would also be a good option.
D3 harrels also works good with .4708 at 200 line.
 
Tom you're right. I'm currently shooting a 6br in F Class and will be building a Dasher this fall for next season because of the new brass. The comments by you and Donovan have been particularly helpful and have ordered a reamer from JGS .4708 with 269 neck... I'll be sending the brass to Harrells for a die once it's up and shooting. I am going to have my 6br barrel set back chambered to dasher and just use it to "season" the new brass (seems to be some disagreement over the term fire form....) and then put the new barrel on. Nothing better to do in the winter than "season" the brass:) I'm from Cody and have shot in Jamie's regional match the past two years (was scoring a target two down from Zilla when he shot his record...). Keith and I will be up again this September. You guys have a great range and Jamie puts on a good show!
 
Tom you're right. I'm currently shooting a 6br in F Class and will be building a Dasher this fall for next season because of the new brass. The comments by you and Donovan have been particularly helpful and have ordered a reamer from JGS .4708 with 269 neck... I'll be sending the brass to Harrells for a die once it's up and shooting. I am going to have my 6br barrel set back chambered to dasher and just use it to "season" the new brass (seems to be some disagreement over the term fire form....) and then put the new barrel on. Nothing better to do in the winter than "season" the brass:) I'm from Cody and have shot in Jamie's regional match the past two years (was scoring a target two down from Zilla when he shot his record...). Keith and I will be up again this September. You guys have a great range and Jamie puts on a good show!

I would have the reamer made with .4715" at .200"
 
Tom

Truth be told - - if people are going to get micro (some say "anal") with things (as many bench rest and ultimate accuracy shooters do) - - there is not - - nor can there be - - a "one size fits all" resize die - - unless it sizes everything down so small it overworks the brass for some situations and shortens it's life or is at a point where people feel it affects accuracy. For example, you have a total of 6 different fl sizing dies and 2 different neck dies. That's not the order of the day for most shooters, many of whom do not go (nor will they go) to the lengths (or expense) you do to get the performance you do out of the Dasher.

I hope that Shiraz brought the Norma Dasher brass to the market not just to cater to the pre-existing bench rest or ultimate accuracy shooters, but also to open the market up to other shooters who will now consider the cartridge more "user friendly" because with factory Dasher brass it is no longer a "wildcat" where one has to start out with a different cartridge and make the brass into Dasher brass by fire forming it.

On dies, people have their preferences and their like and dislikes. Donovan likes his Harrels D4 - - good for him! Some like the Whidden dies they purchase - - good for them! We have had batches of custom Redding Type S FL dies made up for us for years that we have sold and many people like them - - great! Make your choice - - "buy one and try one" and enjoy your journey! And if a re-size die isn't working out for you, I'm sure it's not the end of the world - - buy something else that makes you happy and works! We feel ours work well in the configuration that's .4708" at .200" forward of the bolt face (the current recommended Bullets.com/Kiff reamer), but I am sure there's probably someone out there that may do something unique or different or who has special needs or preferences and feels he or she wants something different - - no big deal - - whatever floats your boat!

Personally I would like to see the Dasher get off of "wildcat" status and go somewhere. It's a great cartridge that we have supported for years.

Robert
 
Tom

...We feel ours work well in the configuration that's .4708" at .200" forward of the bolt face (the current recommended Bullets.com/Kiff reamer),
Robert


Robert, who is "we" in the above quote? And can you be specific as to the exact product...

I'm about ready to jump on board with the "Shiraz" brass and reamer but having a die that will work is paramount to the equation for me.

_pat
 
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Tom -
A "little birdie" dropped me a PM with the link to post # 505 from the 36 page "Norma 6Dasher Brass" thread:
http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/norma-6dasher-brass.3898959/page-26#post-36786504
Which yields sizing measurements worthy of reluctance..... lol

Yep, your Harrel's D4 should keep them -.470" which will compliment the smaller Norma speciication and should illimunate tight base clearances on cycled and work-hardened brass down the road.
Donovan

Looks like his brass expanded to .4715" and the die sized it to .4705". Two observations, there is some influence on the reamer causing it to cut a fat chamber, (or its a mystery reamer) and that die would work with my .4714" chambers but would eventually give clickers on a true .4708"
 
Tom -
A "little birdie" dropped me a PM with the link to post # 505 from the 36 page "Norma 6Dasher Brass" thread:
http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/norma-6dasher-brass.3898959/page-26#post-36786504
Which yields sizing measurements worthy of reluctance..... lol

Yep, your Harrel's D4 should keep them -.470" which will compliment the smaller Norma speciication and should illimunate tight base clearances on cycled and work-hardened brass down the road.
Donovan

Thanks Donovan - - I also urge people to re-read that post critically. That was an example of brass was blown out so the web of the brass cases was swelled and the primer pockets were loose (as in no good anymore) and the brass still chambered fine in a chamber that was .2708" at .200" forward of the bolt face after resizing with one of our dies. The measurement represented the web of the brass (which does not get sized by the re-size die).

That brings up another question. Is it possible to shoot brass to the point that no re-size die can be effective to resize the case adequately at the base? I will say flat out that IMO the answer is yes! Yes - - brass can get to the point that it has been shot too hard and/or too much that it's useful life is done because the web is too "fat".

I have brass a customer shot in a Dasher chamber that was .2708" forward of the bolt face where the web was blown up in the .473" diameter range that was sticking in the chamber - he shot hot loads and after more than 10 reloads he started having sticking brass issues. I also have a few experimental dies beyond the ones we sell and one of them is a real small base die - - it didn't matter what I sized that brass with - - at a .473" web, the "spring back" was too much. Now I would never sell that small based die to customers because they would always be complaining how hard the brass goes into the die and how much squeeze down there would be (the complaint would be that it "overworks" the brass - - and truthfully it does).

So the real question is where does one strike the balance? For you - - you have special needs and preferences so my advice to you is do like Tom and get yourself 6 different re-size dies (which you probably already have) so you can get what you want. For the rest of the shooters that need a decent place to start and don't have the time, money or inclination to do all that - - now that's another story!
 
Thankfully this thread came back around and has some great info.

Not persoanlly being a BR shooter, I look at this new Norma brass just like I look at 6.5x47, x284, etc. I don't have to make it and cultivate it to a point that I feel it's good. It's now expendable. As long as I can buy more and I get a "decent "amount of firings from it, I'm happy. 10 firings for me would be great, 6 or 7 is acceptable. That allows me to amortize the cost of the brass down to the point where 200-300 will use up a barrel. Then I buy a barrel + 2000 bullets + 16# of powder and two boxes of primers and I have a rifle I don't have to think about all year. Just load and shoot. Just like every other rifle I own. I run out of bullets and it's time to toss the barrel and start over . For many of us, THIS IS the real benefit of the Norma Dasher.

Robert, I'll be in touch about a FL sizer. I may be crazy, but I used my Redding 6BR seater to make up my dummy rounds and it worked like a champ, so I think I'm going to stick with it initially.
 
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The truth of the matter - -

The Dasher is a niche cartridge that does not have a big following (in my experience the BRX is much much more popular).

Because the Dasher is not a magazine compatible cartridge with most normal short action magazines, it's never going to be real popular.

It appears the current Norma brass thick rim issue (at least according to a posting by Shiraz) is never going to be addressed so that will likely sabotage it's marketability by reason of compatibility issues with extractors in some factory rifles.

I like the Dasher a lot, but it's still a wildcat and I don't know it will ever get out of that status.

There are no SAAMI standards for anything on it and people do all kinds of things with it.

There is no one die that's the miracle re-size die.

The bench rest shooters are typically very particular and have their own needs, desires and preferences and I doubt any one thing will ever be satisfactory to all.

For me it's time to get off this thread and move on to productive things in life - - thanks all for your input and feedback!

Robert
 
Thanks Donovan - - I also urge people to re-read that post critically. That was an example of brass was blown out so the web of the brass cases was swelled and the primer pockets were loose (as in no good anymore) and the brass still chambered fine in a chamber that was .2708" at .200" forward of the bolt face after resizing with one of our dies. The measurement represented the web of the brass (which does not get sized by the re-size die).

That brings up another question. Is it possible to shoot brass to the point that no re-size die can be effective to resize the case adequately at the base? I will say flat out that IMO the answer is yes! Yes - - brass can get to the point that it has been shot too hard and/or too much that it's useful life is done because the web is too "fat".

I have brass a customer shot in a Dasher chamber that was .2708" forward of the bolt face where the web was blown up in the .473" diameter range that was sticking in the chamber - he shot hot loads and after more than 10 reloads he started having sticking brass issues. I also have a few experimental dies beyond the ones we sell and one of them is a real small base die - - it didn't matter what I sized that brass with - - at a .473" web, the "spring back" was too much. Now I would never sell that small based die to customers because they would always be complaining how hard the brass goes into the die and how much squeeze down there would be (the complaint would be that it "overworks" the brass - - and truthfully it does).

So the real question is where does one strike the balance? For you - - you have special needs and preferences so my advice to you is do like Tom and get yourself 6 different re-size dies (which you probably already have) so you can get what you want. For the rest of the shooters that need a decent place to start and don't have the time, money or inclination to do all that - - now that's another story!

Robert - don't thank me, thank the "little birdie".... lol
A critical aspect to bare in mind is brass will not come out of a chamber bigger then the actual chamber. So no matter what the reamer spec says at the .200"-line diameter, the actual chambered chamber is what counts and matters.

Also Robert, I myself am not in need of a die personally, like your trying to insinuate. I have had only one 6Dasher die since I first got on the 6Dasher back in 2004. It is a Simison custom that sizes to .469 to .4695.
The "potential customers" I wrote to you of, are forum members who have asked my advise to die recommendations for the Shriaz/Norma 6Dasher. So when you wrote "Our Redding custom Dasher dies work great with the Kiff/Grizzly reamer body dimensions" I asked to what size your dies are capable of re-sizing the base/web to, so that it could be known for those potential buyers. All said, your reluctance was to them, that was an answer in itself, besides the re-read of your #505 post in the big thread that came up after.

The 6Dasher is historically a competition and prairie-dog cartridge, built off its BenchRest intended mother case. It is widely used in the competition world for Long Range formats from several disciplines, such as F-Class, Silhouette, Benchrest, PRC, Egg Shoots, Ground Hog matches, etc.. High yearly round counts and a lot of brass, bullets, powder, and barrels are needed each year to fulfill these competition needs and demands, and is the obvious market Shiraz went after.

Donovan
 
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This is absolutely correct. Below is a fired dimension of a stick of brass used and abused in multiple .4714" Chambers. Alex gave me these handful after retiring them from match use, I've since put 25 plus firings on them!

View attachment 986663

I have never had brass come out larger than the actual chamber. If my reamer actually measured .4708" and the brass measures .4715 fired.... I would find a new chamber man. Now we've seen the "mystery reamer" as Alex said, where as it is nothing like what is scribbled on the print.

Tom
TOM have you tested this new brass at a 1000yds being you are fortunate to test at 1000yds we need to here some results on this new brass.
 
No sir, not yet. I'm just trying to get the most out of what I have, preparing for our own championship match and also nationals after that. I sometimes sneak some fall testing sessions in, and that would be the soonest I could peruse it.

Tom
Tom the head size dimension you posted is that piece of brass lapua or norma.
 

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