6 Dasher & 6 BR in 5R rifling?

[Cool Tool]

Because if you build it, new orders will come. All you need is a little internet hype (faster speeds, easier cleaning, no copper fouling) and all of a sudden those 4 and 6 groove barrels are junk, then the phone rings off the hook with new orders. That's a theory anyway.

Well young man you were right after reading the rest this post I rest my case .

 

[LRPV]

Well young man you were right after reading the rest this post I rest my case .

I guess I kinda proved my own point didn't I?

 

[Cool Tool]

I guess I kinda proved my own point didn't I?

Yep

 

[Tim JN]

How many lands?

I wanted to add to Frank’s appreciated sharing of ideas.

The idea of the best land number and style was explored in depth by Harold Broughton in the 1990s in detail. He was a well know as a respected short range competition shooter, coyote manager, gunsmith, barrel maker, and mechanical engineer testing mostly with the PPC in 22 cal. and 6mm. He concluded the odd lands were favored in both 3 and 5 groove but the 5 groove had better proportions of land width vs. groove width. He did a lot for the shooting world, rest in peace.

The logic goes to the idea of why an odd number of blades/ fins are preferred for fans verses the old 4 and 6 bladed metal fan from days past. If one gets dirty or damaged they don’t go out of balance as quickly as an even number. Think of the instantaneous engraved lands of a bullet under the pressures of the ignition, if there is any groove variance the spinning top (the bullet) could be less affected. This is how he explained it to me. This is why Harold liked the 5C® process and land design currently used. As Frank said: ” the lands don’t directly oppose one another.”

The PPC is a cartridge that was design for accuracy but was engineered to requiring engraving pressure to accomplish it with the powders available and developed for it. So the 5 groove conventional land has worked well for this cartridge as Frank has said because it uses additional energy. Tony Boyer gained his 100th hall of fame point with this conventional groove Broughton Barrel, so it works. The same 6mm bullets with the other cartridges like the 6BR work extremely well in the Broughton 5C® Rifle Barrels. The 5C® is definitely the choice with the longer 105-115 gr. bullets use in long range 6mm dashers and 243s. This is why we have standardized on the 5C® which reduces the breech pressure and engraving energy required which is beneficial for most bullets, calibers, and cartridges.

We do make a conventional 4 groove, 5C® and 4C™ for Broughton rimfire barrels. All have won international completions but the majority have been the 5C® Broughton Rifle Barrel.

So what is better? The exact land formation may make the difference. Contrary to other findings by Frank, our 5C® process barrels velocities normally do equal or exceed the velocity of conventional square rifling barrels as reported by most customers reporting from rimfire to 375 calibers.

Only experience with the shooters in the field and in completions can really tell us. Try them all and have fun shooting exploding golf balls. What a fun sport. The number one factor in extreme accuracy is the adherence to extreme dedication to quality barrel manufacturing by the great manufactures we have in the USA.

Thank You, Tim North

Broughton 5C® Rifle Barrels

 

[Cool Tool]

How many lands?

I wanted to add to Frank’s appreciated sharing of ideas.

The idea of the best land number and style was explored in depth by Harold Broughton in the 1990s in detail. He was a well know as a respected short range competition shooter, coyote manager, gunsmith, barrel maker, and mechanical engineer testing mostly with the PPC in 22 cal. and 6mm. He concluded the odd lands were favored in both 3 and 5 groove but the 5 groove had better proportions of land width vs. groove width. He did a lot for the shooting world, rest in peace.

The logic goes to the idea of why an odd number of blades/ fins are preferred for fans verses the old 4 and 6 bladed metal fan from days past. If one gets dirty or damaged they don’t go out of balance as quickly as an even number. Think of the instantaneous engraved lands of a bullet under the pressures of the ignition, if there is any groove variance the spinning top (the bullet) could be less affected. This is how he explained it to me. This is why Harold liked the 5C® process and land design currently used. As Frank said: ” the lands don’t directly oppose one another.”

The PPC is a cartridge that was design for accuracy but was engineered to requiring engraving pressure to accomplish it with the powders available and developed for it. So the 5 groove conventional land has worked well for this cartridge as Frank has said because it uses additional energy. Tony Boyer gained his 100th hall of fame point with this conventional groove Broughton Barrel, so it works. The same 6mm bullets with the other cartridges like the 6BR work extremely well in the Broughton 5C® Rifle Barrels. The 5C® is definitely the choice with the longer 105-115 gr. bullets use in long range 6mm dashers and 243s. This is why we have standardized on the 5C® which reduces the breech pressure and engraving energy required which is beneficial for most bullets, calibers, and cartridges.

We do make a conventional 4 groove, 5C® and 4C™ for Broughton rimfire barrels. All have won international completions but the majority have been the 5C® Broughton Rifle Barrel.

So what is better? The exact land formation may make the difference. Contrary to other findings by Frank, our 5C® process barrels velocities normally do equal or exceed the velocity of conventional square rifling barrels as reported by most customers reporting from rimfire to 375 calibers.

Only experience with the shooters in the field and in completions can really tell us. Try them all and have fun shooting exploding golf balls. What a fun sport. The number one factor in extreme accuracy is the adherence to extreme dedication to quality barrel manufacturing by the great manufactures we have in the USA.

Thank You, Tim North

Broughton 5C® Rifle Barrels

well that's a very nice review interesting to say the least.

 

[czim]

Does anyone have experience with the 5P barrels in 6mm and 6.5mm from Schneider?

 

[kneedtospeed]

This has been beaten to death but I will post about it again. So bear with me! Let's stick with 6mm for starters.

If a customer calls me and ask for a 13.5 twist 6mm barrel with 5R style rifling for a 6ppc type gun build I tell them flat out I will not make it unless there is a understanding that if it doesn't shoot that I'm not taking it back. If they say I just want to try/experiment etc...then fine. Why? The short jacket 6mm bullets used in ppc type guns have a short bearing surface. Those short jackets I feel the rifling/lands don't bite and drive the bullet good enough. They will shoot high .2xx's to flat .3xx's but nothing smaller than that.

The long jacket 6mm bullets like 105's etc...I don't see a difference in regards to accuracy. For one example I shot a two man team match at a 1k yards like 10 years ago. One rifle still had a Krieger barrel on it from when I worked there and the other rifle had a 5R barrel that we made. Same chamber reamer, same loads, same barrel length etc...as far as velocity goes the 5R barrel was 30fps slower on average but to me when you are with in 100fps that is the individuality of the barrel so that didn't mean anything to me. I've had guys tell me they want 5R rifling because the bullets seal better in the bore and they get 150fps more velocity etc...ummmm O.K. but I don't see it at all. In regards to accuracy there was no difference that I could measure. We took 3rd place in the two man team match as well.

Now other calibers like 7mm, .30cal. etc...this doesn't seem to be a problem. Just in the short jacket 6mm's.

We make more then our fair share of ammunition test barrels. Both accuracy barrels and pressure test barrels. We make barrels for both the gov't, and bullet makers and ammo/bullet makers. Now with me making this comment we are talking about production match type bullets (not someone making custom match bullets at home etc...) also keep in mind the ammo makers/bullet makers have protocol they have to follow. They clean the barrels at set intervals, usually being shot out of a fixture (taking human error out of it) as well as they are normally tested indoors in controlled environments in regards to temperature etc...and also not dealing with wind conditions etc.... again taking variables out of the equation. They've tested both 4 groove and 5R rifled barrels in identical calibers etc...and they have not noticed any difference in regards to accuracy and or barrel life. Again this is information collected from multiple sources. So when I get hard data like this it's hard to ignore.

I've shot 2 groove, 4 groove, 5 groove (conventional style grooves), 5R, 6 groove and 8 groove barrels. With the exception to the 5R rifling and the short jacket 6mm bullets I described earlier....again I see no real world difference in regards to barrel life and or accuracy. Anybody saying differently I will take issue with. A good example is Larry Costa just recently. Won the BR nationals. Guess what. Every barrel he shot had conventional 5 groove rifling. He won more awards in one match then I think anyone else ever has in one match at one event. I could be wrong.

Now other thoughts and comments. There are some rifling profiles I do feel don't help barrel life at all. Some rifling profiles with very thin lands or profiled type lands don't help. There is no meat for the wear. Also just recently a bullet/ammo maker tested polygonal rifling in a pressure test barrel. It was the only change made. Same caliber, chamber etc...it gave up some (not a lot) in terms of velocity. Some say 5R cleans easier then 4 groove etc...the vast majority of my barrels are either 4 groove or 5R and the way I clean my guns I don't really see a difference. From a carbon fouling stand point the 5R might clean a little easier because the patch isn't trying to get down in the corners like in conventional rifling but in regards to copper I don't really see a difference.

I do feel the 5R rifling the lands don't directly oppose one another. I do feel this can help fight bullet failure because it doesn't upset the bullet jacket as much as an even groove type barrel does with saying that though bullets are a variable. Bullets themselves fail because the bullet can have problems with them. Bullet failure is more of a problem for a long range shooter than a short range shooter. I say usually after 300 yards is when it's going to happen. A short range shooter will usually never see a bullet blow up etc...might see accuracy problems but not a bullet failure.

Some say if you want hard core accuracy you want conventional type rifling. A 4 groove, 6 groove, 5 groove (not 5R) etc...to an extent I do believe in this. The lands do the driving. When a shooter asks me questions in regards to which rifling is better usually my first come back is what are you using the gun for? What's the caliber? What bullets you shooting? So keep this in mind.

My 6 Creedmoor has 5R rifling. If I drive the gun right it will give me sub 1/3moa. This isn't a bench gun. My 6 Dasher shoots as good or better. It has a 4 groove barrel on it but what I would use the Dasher for is totally different then what I would use the 6 Creedmoor for.

Also keep in mind all of the variables. Bullets are a variable. They vary from lot to lot and can have a big impact on accuracy and have nothing to do with the barrel. The barrel is quick to be blamed I feel but the bullets a lot of us take for granted. Powder is a variable. The charge/load what one barrel likes could be different from the next barrel or different make of barrel etc...

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

 

[Cool Tool]

I will stick to my 4groove an 6groove if it aint broke there is no reason to fix it.