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6 Dasher 109gr N150 Load data?

@Henryrifle, it has baffled me to no end how a 6mmBR can shoot N150 with amazing results, however, a 6 Dasher, in my experience, can not. The Dasher is made out of the same case, it holds only slightly more powder and gains a modicum of velocity. WHY does it appear to have problems with that powder? You got me. After 3 separate attempts with 3 different barrels, it simply became apparent to me that it just don't like that powder. I still believe that some 6 Dasher barrels will shoot it. However, in my opinion, the odds are stacked against it and there are several other powders that the Dasher eats like candy. Why then not just go to the powders that really do work 99% of the time, rather than trying to make a powder work? That's all I am saying. I don't want to spend the time and money to make something work when other powders make the Dasher sing right out of the starting gate..
 
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Will defer to @ShootDots experience but may be able to help. I am running a straight BR on 30.6 grs. N150 out of a 28" Krieger HV 4-groove barrel pushing a 105 Hybrid Target at 2850 fps. No pressure signs at all. Could likely squeeze more velocity out of it but it is not really a competition rig. Here is a target I shot with it last night:

View attachment 1268413

I would expect that a Dasher would take 1 to 2 more grains of this powder to achieve around 3000 FPS--somewhere around 32.3 or 32.5 maybe...

I have found N150 to be a fantastic powder. It's great with the heavy 90 grain VLDs in 223, the 200.20X in 308 and now the 105s in 6BR!

Sounds like you have a fun project coming your way... Good luck with it.

Henryrifle

That's an impressive target, I hope N150 will treat me as well !

Very good info. I will begin testing in both Dasher and BR with a reasonable charge of course, but that makes me think I should end up with about half a grain more than Varget. I will report back.

Thanks a lot HR, that really helps!

Naf
 
@ShootDots: I believe you but that is surprising. Have been thinking about eliminating Varget and replacing it with N150 but I do want to shoot a Dasher in mid range competition. Have been using Norma 203B in the Dasher with respectable results but not good enough to compete yet and finding it is as difficult as finding Varget. I've read many of your informative posts and know you like N540 in the Dasher but I might as well stick to Varget as it is just so versatile.

Thanks for weighing and bringing experience to temper my imaginings.

Henryrifle
 
@ShootDots : I'm also aware of your experience and consider it. Could you tell us the brand(s) of barrel you're using?

I think maybe I should begin with Varget to establish a baseline and then test with N150 with a more educated mind...

Naf
 
@4isnaf: Thanks but, it's not as impressive as it appears. There was almost zero wind. Really just an aiming challenge. The load may be a little out of tune as well. Also, as many others have said, the 6BR is easy to get running. The Dasher has proven a lot more difficult for me. I am having a reamer made that I hope will help. Wish I could be happy with he 6BR but hard to ignore the 100 to 150 extra FPS you get from the Dasher.

Henryrifle
 
@ShootDots : I'm also aware of your experience and consider it. Could you tell us the brand(s) of barrel you're using?

I think maybe I should begin with Varget to establish a baseline and then test with N150 with a more educated mind...

Naf
2 were Kriegers and 1 was a Bartlein. The one Krieger was a .236 bore and the other was a .237 bore. The Bartlein was a .237 bore with 5R rifling.
 
@ShootDots: I believe you but that is surprising. Have been thinking about eliminating Varget and replacing it with N150 but I do want to shoot a Dasher in mid range competition. Have been using Norma 203B in the Dasher with respectable results but not good enough to compete yet and finding it is as difficult as finding Varget. I've read many of your informative posts and know you like N540 in the Dasher but I might as well stick to Varget as it is just so versatile.

Thanks for weighing and bringing experience to temper my imaginings.

Henryrifle
You are quite welcome my friend! Quite welcome!
 
Update

I’m officially discarding N150. It’s the first powder that made me scratch my head like that. The burn rate doesn’t make sense at all.

I’m getting a lot more pressure and heat for the same speed versus N140 and Varget with strange pressure spike.

accuracy is great but it’s definitely not the best pick for the Dasher and heavy bullets.

I’m now transitioning to Varget and H4350 exclusively.

I will still test IMR 4166 because it’s the only we can find easily.
 
That's strange indeed. I intended to test despite ShootDots experience, but I use barrels of the same type and Redfoxcreed is also giving up... I don't want to burn through 3-400 bullets to end up where I started.

I'm glad I revived that thread. Thanks a lot for your answers.

Naf
 
@Redfoxcreed: Interesting how that is validating what @ShootDots is reporting. I am super curious what charges you tried and with what projectiles, if they were in our off the lands and what you saw for velocity.

I have a Dasher that shoots okay--much more of a fun gun than a competition gun but it has about 1400 rounds through it--likely too many to start experimenting with a new powder. Not doubting either of you but am shocked given how good N150 is in the BR, .223 & .308.

Henryrifle
 
@Redfoxcreed: Interesting how that is validating what @ShootDots is reporting. I am super curious what charges you tried and with what projectiles, if they were in our off the lands and what you saw for velocity.

I have a Dasher that shoots okay--much more of a fun gun than a competition gun but it has about 1400 rounds through it--likely too many to start experimenting with a new powder. Not doubting either of you but am shocked given how good N150 is in the BR, .223 & .308.

Henryrifle
It’s not that it’s not good. It is shooting tiny groups BUT it’s always showing the most pressure for the same speed as other powder with faster burn rate AND it’s putting more heat by far.

I am using Berger 109’s around 0.066” off the lands with powder charge ranging from 30.9 to 31.6gr and speeds around 2815 fps . Everything over 2815 was over 59KPSI on the pressure trace.
 
Sounds like you are a much more instrumented shooter than me. I don't really know what pressure trace is but 59KPSI doesn't sound like a lot to me. Are you encountering indirect indicators of overpressure like heavy bolt lift, flattened or blown primers or ejector flow?

I know and have experienced that some barrels are slow but 2815 in a Dasher is surprisingly slow. That would be be low node on a 6BR. Assuming your barrel is 28" or more you should be able to easily hit 2970+++ FPS with a 109. They are supposed to be a direct replacement for the 105 Hybrid Target.

.066 is pretty far off the lands. Are you shooting this in a gas gun or bolt action? What brass are you using and what is your case length, chamber length and freebore?

Given what @ShootDots told us, sounds like N150 is barking up the wrong tree but I am assuming that he had accuracy issues and not low velocity and accuracy issues. I may have read that wrong though.

Henryrifle
 
Sounds like you are a much more instrumented shooter than me. I don't really know what pressure trace is but 59KPSI doesn't sound like a lot to me. Are you encountering indirect indicators of overpressure like heavy bolt lift, flattened or blown primers or ejector flow?

I know and have experienced that some barrels are slow but 2815 in a Dasher is surprisingly slow. That would be be low node on a 6BR. Assuming your barrel is 28" or more you should be able to easily hit 2970+++ FPS with a 109. They are supposed to be a direct replacement for the 105 Hybrid Target.

.066 is pretty far off the lands. Are you shooting this in a gas gun or bolt action? What brass are you using and what is your case length, chamber length and freebore?

Given what @ShootDots told us, sounds like N150 is barking up the wrong tree but I am assuming that he had accuracy issues and not low velocity and accuracy issues. I may have read that wrong though.

Henryrifle
I had not only accuracy issues, I had A LOT of inconsistency. One day it would shoot good and the very next day, with exactly the same components, it would throw flyers at random places on the target. I used the 6 Dasher for primarily 300 and 600 yard F-Open. At 600 yards I could shoot a 200-15x and the very next match shoot a 198-9x in virtually the same conditions. Flyers out in the middle of the 9 ring and the next shot a dead-center X! Once I stayed with Varget, I was good to go. One year I won the Regional at Palo Alto in Louisiana. On day one I used a .260A.I. but on day 2 I used my Dasher. I believe I only dropped 1 point on day 2 in "less than stellar" conditions. I am convinced that had I not changed from N150 and went to Varget, I would not have won that Regional!
 
Sounds like you are a much more instrumented shooter than me. I don't really know what pressure trace is but 59KPSI doesn't sound like a lot to me. Are you encountering indirect indicators of overpressure like heavy bolt lift, flattened or blown primers or ejector flow?

I know and have experienced that some barrels are slow but 2815 in a Dasher is surprisingly slow. That would be be low node on a 6BR. Assuming your barrel is 28" or more you should be able to easily hit 2970+++ FPS with a 109. They are supposed to be a direct replacement for the 105 Hybrid Target.

.066 is pretty far off the lands. Are you shooting this in a gas gun or bolt action? What brass are you using and what is your case length, chamber length and freebore?

Given what @ShootDots told us, sounds like N150 is barking up the wrong tree but I am assuming that he had accuracy issues and not low velocity and accuracy issues. I may have read that wrong though.

Henryrifle

For reference I am running a 26 inch barrel.

as Shotdots said it’s no consistent too.

A pressure trace is a system made to capture change in the rifle chamber in real time. It’s a strain gauge system with a microprocessor .

0.066" of jump is not a lot . I use up to 0.250" with some other rifles. It’s shoot lights out and seating depth is not the issue here.

pressure is pressure and I trust my pressure trace 10000% more than any pressure signs BUT yes I got harder bolt lift and ejector swipes with N150 at 2820fps +-

In constrast I’m getting 2900 fps with H4350 and Varget without excessive pressure .

The 109 is not a direct replacement of the 105 and the 109 pressure out sooner than the 105 due to longer bearing wall.

I don’t say it’s non sense for people to run them past 2920 (in a 26” tube) in a Dasher but those people should invest in a pressure measurement unit….

58000 ish psi is the max rated pressure for the Dasher and BR . Can it hold more pressure ? Yeah sure but the question is why do that.
 
@Redfoxcreed: Thanks for the info. I have a good bit more experience with the 6BR but have been working with a Dasher with at 27" barrel recently.

Based on several reliable sources it really does sound like N150 + 6 Dasher = hot mess.

In on one of your earlier posts on this topic, it sounds like you are using this rifle or one like it in competition. In the main, I agree with you about pushing pressure, however, on other than calm days with equal trigger pullers and equally accurate rifles, the Dasher at 3000+ FPS provides a wider margin of error than say a 6mm BR at 2850 using the same projectile. So, on rifles that are not built for competition I don't push the velocity either.

For me, the Dasher is different. I think it is a pain in the rear fire forming Lapua brass for it and wouldn't be worth the effort or expense if it shot at 6BR speed. That said, I would never advocate for anyone too intentionally load or shoot cartridges loaded beyond CIP, SAAMI or manufacturer established guidelines or maximums.

Thanks again for the info and looking forward to learning more about the best combinations of powders, projectiles, pressures and velocities that produce your accuracy goal.

Henryrifle
 
The only thing that make scratch my head is carbon on shoulders.

Virgin brass are pristine without carbon on the shoulder. Just like half the neck. But once fired FL sized show carbon on the neck and shoulder

before you guys ask it’s a Forster FL honed for Alpha brass (0.266NK) and I bump the shoulder only 0.002".

In fact the 3 pictures you see is a test . First is virgin brass , second is 0.002" bump and last is 0.003" bump.

Anyone has experienced that on a Dasher ?
I have experienced carbon down on the shoulder with my 6Dasher with N140 and H4895. The barrel was originally punched to a 6BRA and had the carbon ring on the shoulder. After about 400 rounds, I didn't like what I was seeing and had it setback to a Dasher. Still get the rings at 1500 rounds, unless using un-fired brass. The thing hammers when I do my part.

With the original BRA and Dasher cuts, I couldn't touch the lands with the 105 hybrid projectile and keep it in the neck. I deducted with the Dasher re-cut, I've just got a large bore barrel. I just set a CBTO and started shooting.
 
I have experienced carbon down on the shoulder with my 6Dasher with N140 and H4895. The barrel was originally punched to a 6BRA and had the carbon ring on the shoulder. After about 400 rounds, I didn't like what I was seeing and had it setback to a Dasher. Still get the rings at 1500 rounds, unless using un-fired brass. The thing hammers when I do my part.

With the original BRA and Dasher cuts, I couldn't touch the lands with the 105 hybrid projectile and keep it in the neck. I deducted with the Dasher re-cut, I've just got a large bore barrel. I just set a CBTO and started shooting.
Yeah I decided to practice letting it go lol.

Shoots awesome so I don’t think about anymore
 

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@mjeff23: The term 'carbon ring' means different things to different people. To me it describes the gap between the end of the case neck of the brass and the shoulder, if you will, that defines the start of the lead* (also called freebore). This gap (ring) is usually about .01" to .015" with correctly sized and trimmed brass.

In my experience, it seems the 6mm BR, Dasher and other similar wildcats do accumulate carbon, or, maybe it's really burned powder particles, more quickly than does a .308 or .223 -- the two cartridges I am most familiar with from a competition perspective.

This ring, if allowed to thicken unchecked will have an impact on pressure and velocity and maybe case extraction too. I find that paying attention to this area keeps my BRs and Dashers running a lot more predictably. I clean it at or before every 75 to 100 shots. After about 120 shots w/o cleaning, I start to see changes in accuracy or velocity or both.

You really can't know the condition of your chamber or barrel without a borescope. Even if you are running patches that come out pristine you can still have a heavily carboned and/or coppered barrel and a chamber that is surprisingly dirty.

While once prohibitively expensive, you can get a quality borescope for under $90! Beware though; looking at your first few barrels with a borescope will be shocking but, now you can share pictures and get others with a lot of experience to chime in.

Out of curiosity, do you know the case length and freebore measurements of the chambers you had where a 105 Hybrid was unable to touch the lands and remain in the neck?

Henryrifle

*That's how it's spelled on my reamer prints.
 

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