45 colt accuracy issues

[Kalitrazescapee]

Confirmed diameter is .452

I've been using cast bullets for a few decades,find I'm kind of a relic. Are you buying your cast bullets or casting your own? If casting your own ,are you sizing? And what lube?
Usually cast like faster powders so you don't melt the base. And you can push them...I used to load a .44mag 265gr hard cast and quenched with 20gr of 2400 powder and it was an accurate load....I think I was using Ly inman stick lube or lee melted in lid ,and shot unsized. Same with a Lyman 405 in .45-70, same alloy ie hard cast wheel weights and would load 50gr 3031 which hurt like#&+( in the Browning 1886...... No more 28gr of 4759 kills deer,and bear .
If your pushing hard cast I'd try 2400, unique, you can load plinker with bullseye, with powder expensive and hard to get...wheel weight lead isn't easy anymore. I was told by another caster yrs ago that the lead stick on weights had trace arsenic which aides in heat treatment....and of course babbet can be added.i never tested mine except the scratch test
Someone may have more knowledge,,but I looked at economy....and use GOOD ventilation.

 

[tw1854]

I've been using cast bullets for a few decades,find I'm kind of a relic. Are you buying your cast bullets or casting your own? If casting your own ,are you sizing? And what lube?
Usually cast like faster powders so you don't melt the base. And you can push them...I used to load a .44mag 265gr hard cast and quenched with 20gr of 2400 powder and it was an accurate load....I think I was using Ly inman stick lube or lee melted in lid ,and shot unsized. Same with a Lyman 405 in .45-70, same alloy ie hard cast wheel weights and would load 50gr 3031 which hurt like#&+( in the Browning 1886...... No more 28gr of 4759 kills deer,and bear .
If your pushing hard cast I'd try 2400, unique, you can load plinker with bullseye, with powder expensive and hard to get...wheel weight lead isn't easy anymore. I was told by another caster yrs ago that the lead stick on weights had trace arsenic which aides in heat treatment....and of course babbet can be added.i never tested mine except the scratch test
Someone may have more knowledge,,but I looked at economy....and use GOOD ventilation.

I didn't actually purchase them, the guy i bought the equipment from was no longer interested in reloading so he gave me all the materials he had which was a bit over 1,000 rounds of new brass, two pounds of trailboss powder, a pound of Winchester 296, 200 grain 45LC lasercast projectiles and 1,000 rounds of 9mm projectiles. The lube was Lee (liquid alox?) but can't remember right off, Lee something lol. I did try with and without lube which didn't have any effect, (probably some leading without lube but was only running 5 test rounds and cleaning the gun after each set of test rounds). Not necessarily hung up on using those particular projectiles but would be nice since I've got about a thousand of them lol

 

[Kalitrazescapee]

I've had issues with lee liquid alox....went to rooster jacket for some lower velocity loads,and spg may be my go to for smokeless besides BP. Another lube to try is tc1000 plus and add half bees wax to stiffen .
Just change one thing at a time.

 

[joshb]

If you look around the castboolit site, you’ll see references of guys using slightly larger diameter cast bullets to help with “accuracy issues” in lever guns. I almost bought a bunch of .453 bullets to try in my gun. I’d need a scope on the rifle before testing would be fruitful. I like the gun as is, so I bought another gun. It’s a new Ruger/Marlin in 44 Magnum that’s drilled for a scope mount. After some testing, I have it shooting 4” groups at 100 with flat nosed 240 grain bullets. I bought some Hornady “tipped” bullets to try next.
Trying different loads in these pistol cartridge lever guns can produce better results but can also be frustrating when you reach the limits of what the gun can actually shoot. It can be a good learning experience.
The Rossi R92 in 45 Colt:
The Ruger/Marlin in 44 Magnum and the last target shot at 100 yards:

 

[Barman54]

I have two .45 Colt Rifles, plus a Ruger Bisley 7.5 I load for.
A Rossi 16", My 1st one, then I bought a Uberti 1873 24".
The group of the 16" @ 50 is NOT that impressive, about your Size groups.
The 24 " Uberti, @ 100 yds, is a LOT better, can hit a 10" Gong all day.
I just might be the Length of Barrel?
I would try a Heavier Boolet, 225 TCFN (ACP) Boolit, or the 250/255.
I did pick up some T.Boss recently, still doing research with it, had better Luck with Unique, T. Group, Blue Dot which does take more Powder than the rest.

Good Luck,
Barman54
Out

 

[kelbro]

Alox would not work in my rifles, only pistols. I needed a better lube that would hold out for the entire length of the rifle barrels.

 

[tommeboy]

All of my 45 colts use 0.454" bullets. If you can get larger bullets and they fit the gun it will shoot better

 

[spencerhenry]

After reading all the posts, finally toward the end is what I would try.
From my experience your bullets are too small. I have shot a few thousand rounds of 45 colt, never used jacketed bullets. But bullets that are .453 or .454, and blue dot for the more powerful loads.

 

[std7mag]

While all of the forementioned things can definitely have an effect on accuracy with cast bullets, I'm leaning towards something else.

If you have the product number, check to see what the Brinell hardness is.
You may just simply be over speeding the bullet.

If it's a 12 Brinell, you really don't want to go above about 1,000 fps. Fine for a 45ACP.
An 18 Brinell will be better for the 45 Colt. Especially with the 16" barrel that the OP is using.

Muzzle velocity for a pistol and a rifle can be substantially different.

 

[tw1854]

While all of the forementioned things can definitely have an effect on accuracy with cast bullets, I'm leaning towards something else.

If you have the product number, check to see what the Brinell hardness is.
You may just simply be over speeding the bullet.

If it's a 12 Brinell, you really don't want to go above about 1,000 fps. Fine for a 45ACP.
An 18 Brinell will be better for the 45 Colt. Especially with the 16" barrel that the OP is using.

Muzzle velocity for a pistol and a rifle can be substantially different.

Brinell hardness 24.... or so the box says lol. I haven't really considered over speeding as a factor but it is one to consider. I'll have to confirm with the reloading bible but since it is a pistol round, I'm sure their data is based off 6 or 7 inch barrels so with mine being 16, it may be possible. I think it's time to invest in a chronograph lol. Still waiting on Midsouth to fill and ship my order of different projectiles and powder. Even though the accuracy is frustrating, I have to say I am enjoying the troubleshooting process of reloading lol

 

[std7mag]

Brinell hardness 24.... or so the box says lol. I haven't really considered over speeding as a factor but it is one to consider. I'll have to confirm with the reloading bible but since it is a pistol round, I'm sure their data is based off 6 or 7 inch barrels so with mine being 16, it may be possible. I think it's time to invest in a chronograph lol. Still waiting on Midsouth to fill and ship my order of different projectiles and powder. Even though the accuracy is frustrating, I have to say I am enjoying the troubleshooting process of reloading lol

24 Brinell should be plenty hard for your application.

I'm running 18 Brinell in my 45 Colt (Taurus Judge 6" barrel) and my M1 Carbine.

Need to order some 125gr for my 38 SPCL and 158gr for my 357Mag.

I've been using Missouri bullets for some years with no issues, as long as I match the hardness with the velocity.

12 up to 1,000fps.
18 up through 1,700fps.

 

[tommeboy]

While all of the forementioned things can definitely have an effect on accuracy with cast bullets, I'm leaning towards something else.

If you have the product number, check to see what the Brinell hardness is.
You may just simply be over speeding the bullet.

If it's a 12 Brinell, you really don't want to go above about 1,000 fps. Fine for a 45ACP.
An 18 Brinell will be better for the 45 Colt. Especially with the 16" barrel that the OP is using.

Muzzle velocity for a pistol and a rifle can be substantially different.

Fit is more important than hardness. BUT! too hard can also make leading. Or more like a antimony wash. But it is not as detrimental as lead fouling. If you can remove the fouling with a couple of passes with a brush then it is more likely antimony wash from the hard bullets.

Don't get wound up on bullet hardness. There is not a cartridge made that will lead at colt velocities of 1200fps with a 10 brn hardness bullet. FIT is KING

 

[tw1854]

Fit is more important than hardness. BUT! too hard can also make leading. Or more like a antimony wash. But it is not as detrimental as lead fouling. If you can remove the fouling with a couple of passes with a brush then it is more likely antimony wash from the hard bullets.

Don't get wound up on bullet hardness. There is not a cartridge made that will lead at colt velocities of 1200fps with a 10 brn hardness bullet. FIT is KING

Fit has come up before and I measured groove diameter at .451, confirmed by slugging the barrel from muzzle towards chamber. The lasercast projectiles are .452 which are the ones that started this post, (still waiting on my hornady xtp 250 grain HP from Midsouth). I have not confirmed throat diameter but my question is how much larger should I try before it becomes unsafe? Would .453 be too large? Or is .452 the best diameter?

 

[Intheshop]

Are these RNFP's a bevel base?
If so...

That "can" (means may,not will) cause some problems in rifles. I pretty much only shoot cast these days. However,it's at the upper range of FPS in high intensity bottleneck cases(22-250,243,6mmR,260). The more square... more perfect... the bases,the better.

Hardness/toughness, while very important isn't the biggest hurdle. Cast rifle loading is a combination of several key factors. Bullet shape,diameter,lube,powder burn rate are most times more important. The deal is folks can get an actual number on hardness.... the other constituents not so much.

There's a direct correlation between your resources,and abilities to make effectual changes and X ring killing accuracy. Unlike handguns with cast where more often than not,a simple recipe or combination will work peachy across a variety of pistols. Good luck with your project.

 

[dellet]

Change powders or change bullets.
Things may not get any better with jacketed and Trail Boss.

A leading cause in accuracy problems is gas cutting. The bullet not sealing the bore and high pressure gasses blowing by the bullet and deforming the base. Trail Boss was designed for low pressure, low velocity loads. That means soft lead. If you’re talking BHN, that would be under 16, more like 12. The pressure needs to be enough to expand the bullet base to seal the bore. With jacketed and hard cast bullets, the pressure required exceeds what is safe in some firearms chambered in black powder gesigned cartridges. 45 Colt is one on those cartridges.

There is no reason to make a cast bullet in 24 BHN for loading and shooting. The reason the bullet is that hard is so you can load 50 pounds in a box and throw it on and off trucks without damaging the bullets.

All this compounds. If the bullet is too hard, not only will it not seal the bore, it won’t compress. Part of what makes lube in grooves work is compression. This helps push the lube out into the rifling.

The type of lube needs to match the bullet hardness, velocity and barrel length. I shoot smaller caliber cartridges.generally 30 caliber and under. An 85 grain 25 caliber bullet does not have much area to carry lube. My bullets are generally somewhere between 22/1 and 25/1 lead to tin ratio. That puts them in the 9-10 BHN range. 15-1700 fps from a 34” barrel is not a problem for accuracy or leading. It’s all about bullet fit, lube used, powder choice. Probably in that order of importance. If you don’t have a line build up on the muzzle after shooting. It’s clearly the wrong lube, or not enough.

You checked the bore size at the muzzle end. You also need to check the chamber end, between might help in accuracy remains an issue. What can happen is with an over size chamber end, the base of the bullet is basically ruined by gas cutting since it didn’t seal. A smaller muzzle end won’t fix that. The opposite happens with a tight breech end. The bullet diameter is reduced to less than the muzzle diameter. A loose or tight spot any where in the barrel causes problems.

There really is a lot to making a cast bullet fly right. But no reason without just a little bit of thought and getting it all working together that you can’t have a very consistent 2 MOA set up. It just takes some time of trial and error.

There’s always the easy button and shoot jacketed or powder coated.

Here’s the bore on a solid 4-5 MOA rifle shooting soft lead bullet. 32 S&W cartridge, 26” barrel.. Its job is 2” stieel at 50 yards with iron sights. With powder coated bullets, hits more often than not on a 1” spinner.

 

[JSH]

A lot of good input here.
I will toss in, you can not shoot lead out with jacketed.
Worst mess I ever had close to 40 years ago with a 1903. I was using store bought bullets that were “hard cast” and wrong size. Guy that I thought was helping me said to shoot a few rounds of jacketed and blow it out…….. did nothing but smear alloy clear to the muzzle.
I spoke to others in the know and read a bunch more. Started casting my own and have not looked back.
I cast for 22-50 with no issues.
Oh the 1903 has probably digested a ton or two of lead with no l effects.

 

[CNYHunter]

I have the same rifle Smith & Wesson 1854 Stealth Hunter 45 Colt. I outfitted mine with a red dot and a bunch of Ranger Point Precision swag as well (buttstock, cartridge carriers, & load gate). It's a really nice handling rifle that carries well in the woods. Loaded hot it's like a mini 45-70.

I shoot the NOE 454-265-WFN-GC bullet at high pressure, and have achieved really good accuracy with it. Loads were chronographed at an average of 1,894 fps with a standard deviation of 5 across a 20 shot string. Powder used as Vihtavuori N110.

I know it's stated in the manual to not run +P loads, but this same firearm is made in 44 Magnum which runs up to 36,000 - 40,000 CUP. So, my though process tells me I should be fine up to those pressures.

With that being said, accuracy generally tends to be a be a bit better with a Gas Checked bullet. My bullets are powder coated, 16-20 BHN, and are sized to .452. I haven't tried running any plain based bullets; but if I did, I would keep the pressures much lower.

Cast bullets can have varying accuracies across different weights and profiles, so try a few to see what it likes. Also, powder choice can have a drastic effect on accuracy and speed. In the lever gun, I choose slower burning powders to get the velocity up. In my 3.75" 45 Colt Ruger Bisley Blackhawk I tend to steer towards faster burning powders to mirror the barrel length.

 

[tw1854]

Well small update. UPS is still holding my package hostage, no idea why and customer service is still awful so contacted Midsouth to let them deal with it. Drove an hour ish to Bass pro in Greenville and they at least had the projectiles i ordered, Hornady XTP 250 grain jacketed hollow points and since I was down that way stopped by PSA and picked up Hornady critical defense FTX for comparison. First five rounds new bottle of alox on the original 200 grain laser cast projectiles, no change. Also tried powder coating which after a few fails I learned I had to clean the projectiles, apparently they have some sort of oil on them which affected adhesion. Easy enough to learn though and I can see why traditional lube is less common now. Very clean process and doesn't get the dies dirty. However, no change in accuracy between powder coat, lubed or dry. Critical defense was spot on all day, easy 1MOA at 50 yards standing. Lastly was my Hornady hollow points. While there was not any load data using Trailboss powder, (couldn't find Titegroup locally and UPS is holding my order hostage) I used the load data for 250 grain lead and still loaded with 6 grains of Trailboss. Just as good results as Hornady critical defense but unfortunately I destroyed that target lol. So here are results using Hornady XTP jacketed hollow points and 6 grains of trailboss, standing at 100 yards with a red dot. Fairly happy with those results but I'll have to wait until UPS decides to deliver my powder to test again with Titegroup