Tell me about it years ago my 444 Markin took 2 shots. I upgraded to 500 grain in a 450 Marlin custom bolt gun. Not that is guarantees a one shot kill but a 500 solid at 2,000 FPS will break those bones.
45-70 with 500 grain nosler solids in a trapdoor?
- Thread starter Broncoguy27
- Start date
wboggs
Gold $$ Contributor
When a very large aggressive brown bear is coming your way, 25 yards out it's damn hard to have confidence in anything.
wboggs
Gold $$ Contributor
You are right about that. At 25 yds and charging it would take a miracle shot with anything. Hopefully you have a partner there to save your a--.
The whole picture is this, an old Navy buddies son had a guide business, he kept my paperwork and fees up to date and being that I was good with survival, topographical maps and a rifle I'd help him when he was short handed. It was paid fun.
This trip he had his hands full with several corporate types on a management hunt so I handled this client he booked, I took a photographer out for some wildlife shots with his camera for 3 days.
The photographer and I got back to the camp so we parted ways, I was ask to stay and watch the game and the corporate dudes while a tractor and wagon were being fetched.
A couple minutes later I heard bear, turned, looked and fired 2 rounds. There I was all alone with a dead bear at my feet so I backed up quite a bit and waited. Things worked out so I filled out the paperwork for shooting the bear and two days later went home and designed a bit heavier rifle. Not the biggest bear I've seen but damn close and the only one I ever had to shoot.
wboggs
Gold $$ Contributor
Where did you hit bear and with what load?
I was carrying my 444 Marlin with (working from memory) a custom 330 grain hard cast. The bear was coming near directly at me, I fired 2 rounds fast and don't know which hit first, one was left of the head (to my right) into the neck and the other was directly in the head. I suspect the head shot was first since I'm here writing this.
We called the authorities and never touched the bear. You know how it is having to justify an out of season untagged kill. With all the wittnesses I had no trouble but you have to play by the rules.
I knew there was some jobs coming up in Alaska so I designed a bit more rifle for future use. Up from 44 caliber 330 grain to 45 caliber 500 grain and a 40,000 PSI load to 62,000 PSI. I did the jobs but never had to fire the 450 at any animal.
The new Mauser is a great rifle Mike Burris built it, smooth as glass, as it's a dangerous game rifle it has iron site and punches 1 ragged hole 3 shot groups at 50 yards. My Marlin is a great rifle too but when you are the backup I thought it a bit light for professional work.
wboggs
Gold $$ Contributor
The 330gr hard cast bullet saved you. I would have sent you to Vegas on a gambling junket.
I have never had a bear that close. Closest for me was about 100yds on a spring hunt. We were on snowshoes trailing one. When he spotted me I was uphill.
wboggs
Gold $$ Contributor
He was in a quartering position and immediately dropped his head and started pawing the snow I hit him immediately with a .375 300gr nosler but the shot was a little to far to the rear and he turned to bit the bullet entrance. This gave me a better shot and I hit him again through the shoulder-spine and he crumpled. Not nearly as close as yours and my backup had a .375 Weatherby. He would have been running uphill with a charge and both of would have been shooting but it is still a crap shoot. My hands and whole body were tingling from the epinepherine released.
I loved reading your story.
CharlieNC
Gold $$ Contributor
I'm an internet warrior with no hunting experience using my 45-70. But I did a lot of research before deciding on bullets. An interesting conclusion from numerous testers is slower velocities give more penetration for hardcast bullets. Why? Firstly these bullets expand little to none. Bodies and test media are largely made up of water or gel. Recall pushing your hand through the pool water, slow is easy but push fast and you feel much higher resistance force. Technically shear force is proportional to shear rate and very predictable, which I believe is at play here. Expanding bullets do not play this way.
On heavy boned animals I prefer big calibers and solids. If you see a bears bones they are nearly solid very little marrow.
CharlieNC
Gold $$ Contributor
Yes, the point being you don't need to push them fast to reach those bones.
I love being alive to tell my story. Just my opinion but a damn lucky shot made possible by years of training. At the time I didn't remembered lining up the sights or the second shot just the backing away from the dead bear and all the followed. It was a holy hell moment.
You have the wrong rifle for the loads you want to use. You need a Ruger No.1 or a stout modern lever action like a Marlin, Henry or Winchester and clones. Every reloading manual I have owned since the 1990's forward has had CLEAR NOTES on why they have two completely different set's of loads for 45-70 based on what rifle you are using! The trapdoor might be heavy and made from modern steel but the "trap door" part of the action is really weak it was a work around to allow the Union to modify all of the muzzle loading rifles they had left over from the Civil War initially. You either need to stick with wimpy Remington UMC stuff in the 300gr. range or better yet black powder loads! Maybe get some Trail Boss if you can find it!
I agree! I am not afraid of much but when big bear surprises you all of your body comes alive call it what you will but you know that things could go bad super fast!! For short distances a bear can move as fast as a horse. Anyone that has ever been knocked over by a playful 100lbs. dog in the backyard at speed just barley clipping a leg has some idea of how bad even a grazing by a charging bear could be. It is not that they are hard to bring down in anything other than a charge it is the fact that they can be very quite and often they are inside of 50 feet of you before you know it. In bear country you really have to stay alert because they are not looking out for you and the big alpha ones do not give a rip about you and are not to be trifled with.
DirtySteve
Gold $$ Contributor
Anyone notice the OP joined Sep 7th made three posts and has not returned since Sep 9th?
wboggs
Gold $$ Contributor
Not until you mentioned it. Wonder if he is reading all the interesting posts?
I haven't read all the comments and it's a bit old but I would stay with cast Even a 405gr or so will kill well. Use a wheelwright slug for minimal if any expansion,don't know as I've never recovered a slug from deer or bear..any that was w 28gr of 4759. No need to push a td or rb beyond bp pressure or velocity., I use 37gr of 3031 in an 1890 td for smokeless, but mostly bp
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