45-70 with 500 grain nosler solids in a trapdoor?

[Idaho-Lefty]

Make darn SURE that, your Life Insurance, is Paid up !
Shooting an, 1873 "Clone" that was, NEVER made for, anything bigger than, a low pressure .45-70.. YIKES !
You gonna have,.. a THIRD EyeBall,. ( probably )
I would be using, a MODERN, Marlin 1895 Rifle or, a "good" 1886 Winchester,.. Minimum !
Sorry to be,.. a "Debbie Downer",.. but,.. BE careful !

 

[dhagerty40]

Make darn SURE that, your Life Insurance, is Paid up !
Shooting an, 1873 "Clone" that was, NEVER made for, anything bigger than, a low pressure .44-40,.. YIKES !
You gonna have,.. a THIRD EyeBall,. ( probably )
I would be using, a MODERN, Marlin 1895 Rifle or, a "good" 1886 Winchester,.. Minimum !

I Have to agree. After seeing an older Marlin 45-70 lever action blow up this last weekend, I would be leary of what I would load. Luckily the shooter only needed 25 stitches in his hand.

 

[Ggmac]

Your bullet choice is not a wise one . I suggest more research on your quarry and range you plan to shoot at . Lots of drop to take into consideration.

 

[wboggs]

Your bullet choice is not a wise one . I suggest more research on your quarry and range you plan to shoot at . Lots of drop to take into consideration.

What would your choice be?

 

[David Milisock]

I'm going on a Bison hunt, and I want to use my 45-70 1873 clone. I can't find any data to load the nosler 500 grain jacketed solids in it. I called nosler and they have nothing over 300 grains and won't discuss it. Has anyone loaded these? If you have, what was your start?
I have approximately 9 different rifles I can use, I have a ton of other bullets for the 1873 clone. I'd like to use this gun with these bullets.
Thank you!!!

I have the Hornady 3rd Edition book in front of me, it limits Trapdoor loads to 25,000 C.U.P. and to a 300 grain soft point. Listed MAX loads show 1,900 FPS , powders, H-322, 54.8 GR and RL-7, 45.7GR and IMR 4198, 42.5 GR. In reverse burning rate order.

REDUCE LOADS TO START AS THESE ARE MAX LISTINGS. H-322 shows no load under 40.7 GR, the other 2 go lower about 33 GR.

I have used this book since it was new 1980 and I have found that it's not as conservative in terms of pressures as newer publications.

The 45-70 is one of 2 cartridges I place on the LOADER BEWARE list, the other is the 458 x 2. The 45-70 because of 3 different actions and pressure limits, this makes it imperative that you keep your ammo organized.

The 458 x 2 (which is similar to the very heavy 45-70 loads) because of the short belted case can chamber in sub 45 magnum caliber rifles.

 

[Ggmac]

What would your choice be?

Definitely not a solid thats made for dangerous game . First Id check my skills and survey the hunting location and see if open or lghtly wooded . Try to figure my max realistic range , taking my skills , my rifles accuracy , and my load into consideration. If its a 300 yd range Id pick my load ( bullet ) that was most accurate, have the required velocity to kill cleanly , figure my point blank range then compare the available bullets , flex point 350 gr to something in the 400s . Analyzing the difference between the velocity and retained energy along with possible bullet expansion ( newer bullet design) . A solid isnt a wise long distant choice, its purpose was to penetrate thick hide and bone and to not expand , most shots were expected to be in yards , maybe 30 to 50 max . Id not stress a rifle of that design with a solid copper or brass projectile, solid hard cast lead yes .

 

[wboggs]

Agree with your choice of lead. My Lyman book shows
some good trapdoor loads with the heavier cast bullets, up to 535gr. BC for the 500 gr is .391 and 535 gr is .402
I would choose one of those casted to fit my bore. You don't need the bullet to expand to be effective. Just place your shot at a reasonable range or wait for another chance. The way buffalo are hunted usually gives you lots of options.

 

[SSL]

Mike Venturino relates the story of a friend of his who got three bison with a single shot using a hard cast bullet pushed to maximum velocity. All kinds of problems with the conservation people. His recommendation is a 405-500 grain flat-point cast from 1:20 alloy over a case full of black powder. Modest expansion coupled with excellent penetration from nearly any angle. Since he has owned and shot more black powder rifles than most of us have even seen, let alone shot, I would bow to his expertise.

 

[wboggs]

Mike Venturino relates the story of a friend of his who got three bison with a single shot using a hard cast bullet pushed to maximum velocity. All kinds of problems with the conservation people. His recommendation is a 405-500 grain flat-point cast from 1:20 alloy over a case full of black powder. Modest expansion coupled with excellent penetration from nearly any angle. Since he has owned and shot more black powder rifles than most of us have even seen, let alone shot, I would bow to his expertise.

Hard to argue with Mike Venturino. But, his friend's judgement was awful to say the least. There is no reason to make a sweeping judgement base on this incident. I would like to know how many times he has personally has taken more than one bison with a shot. Also, why did his friend have to take the shot? I assume there was some dire emergency.

 

[SSL]

Hard to argue with Mike Venturino. But, his friend's judgement was awful to say the least. There is no reason to make a sweeping judgement base on this incident. I would like to know how many times he has personally has taken more than one bison with a shot. Also, why did his friend have to take the shot? I assume there was some dire emergency.

His point was that people over-estimate the "power" needed for such hunting. No...he isn't suggesting that his friend's experience was common, or even a good decision. It was based on internet "experts" contentions that he should use a hard cast bullet driven as fast as possible to hunt bison. He uses the experience only as a demonstration that all that power and velocity isn't of any benefit. His recommendation of 405-500 grain cast bullets at 1,200 to 1,400 fps will do the job with power to spare and doesn't run the risk of leaving you holding a handful of scrap metal after the shot. Or worse.

 

[wboggs]

I accept your explanation of his recommendation. It is logical and resonable. I have shot thousands of 1-20 alloy bullets at 1200-1700 fps out of a falling block .45-70 and .45-90. Most were the 535 gr.
As you state, they all have power to spare under the conditions bison are hunted.
Personally, I would have a trapdoor thoroughly checked by a gunsmith knowledgeable in them.
The Lyman loads are maxed at 18000 cup.
Finally, "internet experts" opinions are not worth the paper they are written on. Mike has a lot of real world experience and I respect his opinion but would customize my load.

 

[XTR]

I absolutely plan to take a trip and get a bison with my 45|70 shooting pp 400s over 70 gr of ffg, but mine is a ’74 Sharps made by C Sharps, not a trapdoor.

I suggested that the combo referenced in the original post might not be ideal.

 

[wboggs]

That C Sharps rifle is first class

 

[dellet]

The doom and gloom in this thread is pretty entertaining. I would choose a different bullet, because I think there are better choices, but it absolutely can be done safely with solid.

The model 73, if original, might be cause for argument, but this is a replica. The standard bullet weight for a government model 84 was 500 grains. Plenty were shot in the model 73’s in the day.

Most of the replicas come out of Italy. If this is the case, the rifle in question was proof tested and marked before it was allowed to be offered for sale. It would have been proofed for loads over 28,000 psi for export to the U.S. based on a SAAMI cartridge limit of that same amount.

Lastly here are published loads that do not exceed 19,000 psi for bullets over 500 grains. These loads are very close to velocity of the day.


Higher pressure loads may or may not gain much in velocity for the OP’s application, maxing out well below 1500 fps. As I stated in an earlier post, bullet length will rob much needed case capacity.

Jamming a brass sold with a highly compressed load is a completely different issue and is entirely possible with the listed bullet.

The idea is outside the box, but it’s far from dangerous, if done with care.

 

[David Milisock]

The doom and gloom in this thread is pretty entertaining. I would choose a different bullet, because I think there are better choices, but it absolutely can be done safely with solid.

The model 73, if original, might be cause for argument, but this is a replica. The standard bullet weight for a government model 84 was 500 grains. Plenty were shot in the model 73’s in the day.

Most of the replicas come out of Italy. If this is the case, the rifle in question was proof tested and marked before it was allowed to be offered for sale. It would have been proofed for loads over 28,000 psi for export to the U.S. based on a SAAMI cartridge limit of that same amount.

Lastly here are published loads that do not exceed 19,000 psi for bullets over 500 grains. These loads are very close to velocity of the day.
View attachment 1279280

Higher pressure loads may or may not gain much in velocity for the OP’s application, maxing out well below 1500 fps. As I stated in an earlier post, bullet length will rob much needed case capacity.

Jamming a brass sold with a highly compressed load is a completely different issue and is entirely possible with the listed bullet.

The idea is outside the box, but it’s far from dangerous, if done with care.

I agree! However I maintain that the 45-70 is a cartridge that requires diligence, firearms for that cartridge vary widely in their ability to handle pressures. Older rifles (well over 100 years old) with a weak design 25,000 PSI or less, lever actions at 40,000, Siamese and Pattern 17 bolt rifles at 50,000 PSI. UNMARKED ammunition and untrained users are a recipe for disaster.

This is why when I wanted a 45 caliber dangerous game rifle I went with a custom bolt 450 Marlin, high pressure 500 grain projectiles cannot be chambered in a lever action and with the proprietary belted case cannot be chambered in any other belted cartridge rifle. Therefore 60,000 PSI cartridges are more safe for future users.

 

[cinch29433]

Make darn SURE that, your Life Insurance, is Paid up !
Shooting an, 1873 "Clone" that was, NEVER made for, anything bigger than, a low pressure .44-40,.. YIKES !
You gonna have,.. a THIRD EyeBall,. ( probably )
I would be using, a MODERN, Marlin 1895 Rifle or, a "good" 1886 Winchester,.. Minimum !
Sorry to be,.. a "Debbie Downer",.. but,.. BE careful !

A 73 Winchester and a 73 trapdoor are different. Though both were meant for the one true powder. A full load of of 2F under a card wad and 405's will work on those at wounded knee as well as make bison extinct.

If one wants to use jacketed bullets and smokeless powder there are plenty of rifles made for that. The old trapdoor Springfield isn't one of them unless you use a full case of trailboss. Jacketed bullets are another thing but as long as they are sized for the bore.

Kevin Costner did slide a buff with his follower all the way down on a .44 rimfire in a movie once...

 

[David Milisock]

A 73 Winchester and a 73 trapdoor are different. Though both were meant for the one true powder. A full load of of 2F under a card wad and 405's will work on those at wounded knee as well as make bison extinct.

If one wants to use jacketed bullets and smokeless powder there are plenty of rifles made for that. The old trapdoor Springfield isn't one of them unless you use a full case of trailboss. Jacketed bullets are another thing but as long as they are sized for the bore.

Kevin Costner did slide a buff with his follower all the way down on a .44 rimfire in a movie once...

The 45-70 is one cartridge that arguably has seen the largest percentage of increase in cartridge potential of any cartridge since its inception in the late 19th century to today.

By today's standards what was a weak 45 cartridge is now a formidable 45 in a strong bolt rifle. I wouldn't feel under gunned carrying a heavy 45-70 loaded rife even facing a large aggressive brown bear.

 

[Idaho-Lefty]

OOP's ! Ole Lefty,.. made, a Mistake !
I misread, the Post, the Title says 1873 "Trapdoor " and I immediately, "thought about", the VERY WEAK action of, the 1873 Winchester that was, NEVER Chambered for, the .45-70 anyway ( MY Mistake ! ),.. SORRY !
The .45-70 was NOT used, in Levers, until the 1886 Winchester Lever, came out !
Agree with others,.. STAY with, Black Powder ( or a good Substitute for Blk ) AND watch those, Pressures !
NO need for, real Hard Lead, either as, even the old .45-70's killed Buffalo ( W/ soft Lead ) just, FINE !

 

[Bugs]

You have a perfectly good, legitimate reason to go out and buy yourself a Sharps. You should take advantage of it.

 

[wboggs]

The 45-70 is one cartridge that arguably has seen the largest percentage of increase in cartridge potential of any cartridge since its inception in the late 19th century to today.

By today's standards what was a weak 45 cartridge is now a formidable 45 in a strong bolt rifle. I wouldn't feel under gunned carrying a heavy 45-70 loaded rife even facing a lardge aggressive brown bear.hat

You will need bullets that will hold together and penetrate along with proper shot placement no matter what caliber you are using. The only shots that stop them in their tracks are a brain (difficult to make) or a spinal column in the neck or shoulder area.