I picked up a new Henryx in 45-70 and now a suppressor to thin out some hogs. Most of our hogs are under 200 lbs and shot inside of 75yds. After ordering a box of Hornady 325gn subx bullets I saw that Hornadys published load info for their their subx bullets is all at supersonic speeds. I called and they said they use a blend of powder not available to the public to achieve bullet performance at subsonic speeds and they couldnt offer subsonic load recommendations using commercially available powder. So, why offer a "subsonic bullet" but no subsonic load info for that bullet? My loading experience is limited to common rounds using published load data but I've never developed my own loads and there is not much info out there for my 45-70 sub needs. I'd rather not use cast bullets but any 45-70 subsonic hunting bullet recommendations/ load info, or experienced insight is greatly appreciated.
45-70 subsonic Hunting
- Thread starter Seasndfire
- Start date
There's tons of load data on the 45-70 at subsonic velocities. I'd start at 14 grains of Alliant Unique powder and work up or down from there. You'd best have a chronograph because barrel length and bullet choice will dictate your speed. You need to get it down under 1080 fps at 10 feet from the muzzle to get consistent subsonic speed without the crack. I found at 1060-1065 fps i stopped getting that one crack every now and then. As far as the Hornady subx bullets load data, they are working on it from what i've seen from several other sources. I run the 395 gn (452) sub x form my 450 bushmaster at 1065 fps with 12.2 gn of Unique. Stupid quiet from a 16" barrel and Hybrid 46 can on the end. The bullet impact is louder than the gun firing! : )
Dan
Subsonic Loads for the 45-70?
I have a Marlin stainless guide gun with the barrel shortened to 16 inches and threaded. I plan to put my sons and grandson in the good spots this sea...
3rd or fourth post down shows a guy getting 1050 fps with 12 grains of unique but that's with a cast bullet. You'll need to go higher to get a jacketed bullet of equal weight up to that speed.
Personally, if i were trying for subsonic it would be easier if the bullet were heavier such as these 410's. it's easier to keep a heavier boolit slower and get better case fill.
Hornady SUB-X Bullets 45 Cal (458 Diameter) 410 Grain FTX Box of 50
The Hornady Sub-X (Subsonic - eXpanding) bullet features a lead core. Long grooves in its gilding metal jacket combine with the bullet’s flat...
www.midwayusa.com
I've read that case capacity can be an issue w 45-70 for subs and Lil Gun may be a powder to consider for that reason as well. Anyone with experience there? Yes, I have found plenty of sub load data on 45-70 but my challenge is finding data that incorporates a jacketed or all copper bullet that will perform for hunting and expand at subsonic speeds. Hornady has their sub x, Maker, Hammer and a few others make sub hunting bullets but I cant find sub load data for these. I know heavier will get speed down just not sure how well they'll expand at sub speeds. I guess it's finally time to step out of the comfort zone and do some experimenting. Barrel length is 18" and I have a magneto speed chrono so not sure how much speed i'll be looking for right out of the barrel. Thanks again for the suggestions.
I would not consider Lil' Gun because of the low case fill/ volume ration but the Alliant Unique powder is used by many, many guys to run sub loads with the 45-70. Case fill is not an issue. It's the reason I pursued it with my 450BM. It is low pressure, not position sensitive at all and you do not need a filler whatsoever to load at reduced loads. Another good option in your case would be with Hodgdon Traill Boss powder since you have a lighter bullet but that powder is not available until 2023 as all production was ceased. The sub x bullets perform outstanding. I've recovered several now after shooting through fiber board and soft dirt and at 50 and 100 yards they mushroom to over 1" in diameter and retain most (probably 75%) of their weight. I'm anxious to try them out on some venison : ) I wouldn't hesitate to use these for a good ethical (humane) hunting option.
All the sub x bullets are designed to expand down to 900 fps which is usually out to around 150 yards (give or take) when fired at 1050 fps.
XTR
F-TR obssessed shooting junkie
I’ve been reading about Unique loads for the 45-70 since I got my first one. Probably the way to go. The problem for many rifle powders is a grossly under filled case and position sensitive ignition.
I may be misinterpreting your posts, but the powder has nothing to do with the bullet performance, once it leaves the muzzle the powder part is over.
Soft cast bullets have been working great at subsonic speeds in the 45|70 for about 150 yrs. (Oops, just noticed the suppressor part, cast and cans tent not to play well together)
The reality is you really don’t need much expansion when the bullet starts out at .458. ITT starts bigger than some finish.
edit: one last thought. If you can find them the Remington 405 bullet it is designed for 45-70 speeds. They used to come out every few yrs. I bought a lot of them many yrs ago for my 45-70 (and now 458 SOCOM) hunting rounds. If you can’t find them for reloading, try to find the Remington loaded ammo with the 405; it’s a ‘73 Springfield safe load and if I recall it made about 900 to 1000 FPS from my Highwall.
I may be misinterpreting your posts, but the powder has nothing to do with the bullet performance, once it leaves the muzzle the powder part is over.
Soft cast bullets have been working great at subsonic speeds in the 45|70 for about 150 yrs. (Oops, just noticed the suppressor part, cast and cans tent not to play well together)
The reality is you really don’t need much expansion when the bullet starts out at .458. ITT starts bigger than some finish.
edit: one last thought. If you can find them the Remington 405 bullet it is designed for 45-70 speeds. They used to come out every few yrs. I bought a lot of them many yrs ago for my 45-70 (and now 458 SOCOM) hunting rounds. If you can’t find them for reloading, try to find the Remington loaded ammo with the 405; it’s a ‘73 Springfield safe load and if I recall it made about 900 to 1000 FPS from my Highwall.
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Trailboss?
Personally I would just use a full power round. Sub sonic or not, it's not going to make a difference in the number of hogs you harvest. The main advantage to a suppressor is the ability to hear and not having to wear hearing muffs or plugs.
By todays standards the 45-70 is already sub sonic.. Smile. Just load and shoot a standard load that is accurate, with a good heavy bullet.
For lighter loads load some light loads, working up some that are also accurate, with Trail Boss.
Various load data manuals and sites give load reccomendations. Old 4895 also has some light load data out there.
For lighter loads load some light loads, working up some that are also accurate, with Trail Boss.
Various load data manuals and sites give load reccomendations. Old 4895 also has some light load data out there.
Follow up: I got ahold of a pound of Shooters World Buffalo rifle. 22 gn got me avg 950 fps with 410 gn. Hornady sub-x bullets. First 100 lb hog hit broadside at 50 yds knocked it over got up and ran off w no blood trail. Next 4 hogs dropped with neck shots all within 50 yds. At 50 yds the drop on the sub bullet was 12" lower than my 325 gn supersonic Hornady ftx bullets so shooting accurately at varied distances would be a challenge. Expansion on bullet was good at this speed but penetration not so much. Neck shots at close distances were very effective and works perfect for my needs. I'm in Florida so essentially sea level thanks for pointing that out M-61 (below)
Attachments
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Of course at sea level. Speed of sound is as you know is horribly dependent on altitude,
Not sure I follow.
The seed sound travels through the air at sea level
(yes approximately 1080 fps) whether the noise is created by a nuclear explosion or 14 gr of Unique is the same. Humidity has a small effect on the speed.
dellet
Gold $$ Contributor
The only factor you really need to consider for velocity and the speed of sound is temperature. As long as the air temperature is the same, 10,000’ elevation change will likely have less effect than your loads ES. Any decent ballistic calculator will calculate the speed of sound for your shooting conditions.
Speed of sound calculator.
The other factors for noise will be your load, specifically powder choice. For the most part, faster powders will have less noise at the muzzle. There are exceptions.
Faster powders will have less muzzle pressure, less unburned powder, less gas and lower temperatures when the bullet exits the muzzle. Less of all the factors that the suppressor is designed to mitigate.
Speed of sound calculator.
The other factors for noise will be your load, specifically powder choice. For the most part, faster powders will have less noise at the muzzle. There are exceptions.
Faster powders will have less muzzle pressure, less unburned powder, less gas and lower temperatures when the bullet exits the muzzle. Less of all the factors that the suppressor is designed to mitigate.
That's a great test for these bullets! I'm glad to see that they show the same level of expansion that I have found when recovering them in the backstops. They appear to have reliable expansion at sub speeds. No doubt there's little blood trail without a complete pass through and with the limited ft-lbs of a sub load, I doubt you'd be able to get a pass through. Try to get up as close to 1050 fps as possible every fps counts when you are subsonic. I'd prefer a head shot with a sub load but any well placed vital shot and no pressure on the animal should be no worse than poking them with an arrow. Keep on stackin up those hogs! I'm jealous that we don't get to shoot them in southern PA ; )
Dan
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Any bullet under the speed of sound is subsonic-meaning it lacks the sonic "crack" sound but not all subsonic bullets/ loads sound the same as dellet has said. A 150 grain 9mm bullet at 1050 fps propelled by 3 grains of powder is quieter than a 410 gr, 458 cal bullet being fired with 15-20 grains and it also matters what powder is used.
Dan
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