45-70 Reloading

[M-61]

Reloading for a Marlin 1895 in 45-70. Have had nice accuracy with Hornady 325gr. with the pointed tip.
Problem: cannelure on bullet requires a seating depth that the seating die won't reach. Hornady Leverevultion brass is .050 shorter. Bought a Lee crimper die. It won't do it either.( It does state in the instructions that 'short' brass will not work). I guess the .050 falls into that category.
Question: if I turned .030 to .040 off a shell holder would that allow the brass to go high enough into the Lee crimp die to reach the collets that apply the crimp? I know it's a lot but that shell holder would only be used for the crimp so there would be no force on the holders upper half to speak of for withdrawing from that crimp die.
This was supposed to be for fun but I can't seem to venture too far away from seeking better accuracy. When I single loaded the 325's their accuracy was better by a good bit. However anything short of the cannelure will not allow feeding as the rubber tip drags just enough to prevent it. And I would like to load the magazine.
Just wanted a break from the BR rifles and have a short large caliber rifle.

 

[tazzman]

http://www.marlinfirearms.com/pdfs/manuals/mfc_centerfire.pdf

This link indicates (page 1) that you can:
NOTE: Hornady Evolution Ammunition, (with red, flexible
bullet tip, 2.60" max. length), may also be used. Hard pointed bullets should not be used

Have you studied the path for feeding your reloads? Is there a relief grind possible to allow the projectile tip to pass more easily?

Just my thoughts...

Phil aka tazzman

 

[M-61]

http://www.marlinfirearms.com/pdfs/manuals/mfc_centerfire.pdf

This link indicates (page 1) that you can:
NOTE: Hornady Evolution Ammunition, (with red, flexible
bullet tip, 2.60" max. length), may also be used. Hard pointed bullets should not be used

Have you studied the path for feeding your reloads? Is there a relief grind possible to allow the projectile tip to pass more easily?

Just my thoughts...

Phil aka tazzman

Yes Hornady's loaded ammo(Leverevlution) works fine. Reloading their bullets is the problem when wishing to use the magazine.
I sure have studied the path and a relief grind would work. I would rather not do that even though it appears to require a small amount of removal. Did my thoughts of modifying the shell holder make ANY sense?
Thanks for the response.

 

[rockrat]

If you are going to modify the top of the shellholder, get and extra, and modify that one. You might get the top too thin and when sizing, rip it off when pulling the case out of the die. Use the modified shellholder for only seating.

 

[XTR]

a 450 Marlin seater die may work w/o grinding on your 45-70 dies..

I don't know if you've reloaded for your 45-70 much. I've relaoded for a Win-Mir Highwall that I shoot smokeless and a C. Sharps '74 that I shoot black powder (the holy black in many parts) What I've found is that almost every sizing die out there will over size the piss out of your brass. When you seat you will see a lump where the pill is pushed in, and they don't shoot very well that way.

If you run into that look into expander dies, or save time and go to meachamrifles.com and get a bushing die for your 45-70 reloading.

 

[tazzman]

M-61,

If Hornady Leverevolution brass is the problem(0.050 in shorter), then have you tried standard 45-70 brass?
I'm pretty sure that your crimping die would work then.

Phil aka tazzman

Does your die set come with different seating stems?

 

[M-61]

M-61,

If Hornady Leverevolution brass is the problem(0.050 in shorter), then have you tried standard 45-70 brass?
I'm pretty sure that your crimping die would work then.

Phil aka tazzman

Does your die set come with different seating stems?

Yes I have. Standard brass winds up with an COAL that is 'just' too long. Single loading is required. Having done that with Hornady's 325 the accuracy is very good. BUT I wanted to be able to load the tubular magazine. The cartridges will not feed as that rubber tip just snags. Or course this is loading the standard brass and crimping the bullets and the very shortest point to give a shorter COAL. That's when I discovered the Hornady brass being shorter by .0050
Now I can't crimp their bullets in their brass with a regular seating die nor a LEE crimp die.
Yes my die has 3 seating stems but this does not address the crimp problem. When the collet in the Lee die touch each other the crimp function is done, and this happens too soon with the Hornady brass.
I am waiting for another shell holder which I will cut .0030-.0035 off. Not much left but the removal from the Lee crimper is almost no force.
I can see myself loading flat nose bullets. Either that or I will be the proud owner of a single shot lever action. I have defeated my own purpose for buying the rifle to begin with. I was just quite surprised at the accuracy of this 18"barrel in a lever rifle.

 

[XTR]

I've only loaded the 325s for a friend in 450 Marlin so I'm not sure if you can seat deeper into a regular 45-70 case and not get up to the ogive, (now I may have to go look) but if you can get it up there and stay on the bearing surface you should be able to ignore the cannelure and crimp it where it needs to be. Case capacity is ridiculous on this cartridge shooting smokeless.

If that won't work, the reality is that the pointy bullets are an advertizing gimmic for the 45-70 and the 450 Marlin. Shooting them at 2000 FPS, give or take 200, the ballistic difference between them and the Hornady 350s is negligible. Give the Hornady 300 HP or the 350 round nose a try. I played with a whole bunch of jacketed bullets in my Win-Mir highwall before I went out and bought 500 Remington 405s last time they did a run. Launch it at ~1800 and at any angle and inside of 200 yards it will shoot through just about any animal in North America (and make a big honkin' hole on the way)

 

[jghoghunter]

""If that won't work, the reality is that the pointy bullets are an advertizing gimmic for the 45-70 and the 450 Marlin. Shooting them at 2000 FPS, give or take 200, the ballistic difference between them and the Hornady 350s is negligible. Give the Hornady 300 HP or the 350 round nose a try. I played with a whole bunch of jacketed bullets in my Win-Mir highwall before I went out and bought 500 Remington 405s last time they did a run. Launch it at ~1800 and at any angle and inside of 200 yards it will shoot through just about any animal in North America (and make a big honkin' hole on the way)""


I'm with xtr. I've shot the 300 and 350 in my Marlin 45-70 and 3 other lever marlins and they all shot well. But in the end I went back to the 405 hard cast at close to 1700 in the 18" bbls and never looked back. Anything you hit with them guns goes down and you can eat right up to the hole.

 

[tazzman]

M-61,

Using regular 45-70 brass, have you tried reducing the brass OAL?
We know that you cannot crimp Hornady Leverevolution brass (.050 too short); can you crimp a regular 45-70 brass shortened, let's say, .025 shorter?

Just a thought...

Phil aka tazzman

PS: is your moniker related to the M61A1? ;D

 

[M-61]

That is my next step. I have the brass and cutter.
I received so much good advice so far I no longer feel like I screwed up.
In the end the flat nosed bullets will be fine.
Also I fell into the advertising gimmick of the pointed bullets and should have devoted that time to working up some loads for the flat nose.
I think I started out with a load that just happened to really be good with those pointed ones, and I got fixed on them as being the answer.
In answer to your 'PS'.....Yes..Vulcan

 

[173ABN]

A friend says he uses .452 bullet for his 45-70. Is this a wise move. where I use the norm 458 bullet.

 

[Beiruty]

Whatever it says here

 

[Ray123]

Nope, did not work for me ...they all hit sideways at a 30 yards. Diameter too small to get any spin on the rifling, 45 ACP and Colt are .451"- .452" just about bore dia. Also if ya don't get a heavy crimp, the powder will not ignite, primer will push bullet and unburned powder down the bore, leaving you with a dangerous bore obstruction should you shoot another cartridge behind it...also can get hang fires... you can usually get .002 under to catch the rifling, with a heavy crimp, but not .006" or .007" undersize. Powder burns efficiency with pressure, undersize bullets do not provide the resistance needed, to achieve pressure, and powder actually stops burning...turns into a solid melted like clump in the bore, along with the bullet that did not exit. Use proper sized bullets, go cast plated, or coated, .458" or .459" for cheap shooting.

 

[mike mccormick]

There can be rather large variations in actual bore diameter on 45-70s. It is wise to slug your bore. On cast bullets, size to .002" over actual bore diameter.

 

[nakneker]

I shoot a lot of 45-70, fun round. .459 and .458 out of the 45-70s. The .452s go into the 45 Colt vaqueros. I asked the same question when I first started and was advised by a guy who shoots and reloads a lot of 45-70 to watch and make sure I used the right bullets for the correct firearm. He was pretty animated about the warning and I’ve followed the advise ever since.

 

[servant403]

A friend says he uses .452 bullet for his 45-70. Is this a wise move. where I use the norm 458 bullet.

If he does use bullets that size in a 45-70 he does not know much about reloading that round. Its not a size for 45-70. Any reloading manual will tell you that.

 

[BigBolt]

You need to be aware of SAAMI specifications..

https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/ANSI-SAAMI-Z299.4-CFR-Approved-2015-12-14-Posting-Copy.pdf

 

[CharlieNC]

There can be rather large variations in actual bore diameter on 45-70s. It is wise to slug your bore. On cast bullets, size to .002" over actual bore diameter.

Good advice

 

[Kalitrazescapee]

I realize this in an old thread,but the first post was an issue with crimping Hornady brass because it's short. The seating die is long enough to shorten the bottom of die , allowing cartridge to be crimped. Nobody wants to throw away brass , all because of .050 " ,and Hornady brass powder capacity isn't an issue. Shortening the die still allows seating longer brass....the bullet doesn't matter if you can't crimp the case..just like .38spl in a .357 mag die..it won't crimp.