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45-70 load help

navyrad8r

gonna load some 45-70 for my buddy's new production Marlin 45-70 guide gun. Not trying to rearrange my dental work but i think that is part of the cartridge design. Brass has been sized, and is tumbling as we speak. the projectiles are going to be 325 gr Hornady FTX. Powder on hand is IMR 4320/4064, WW or Wolf primer. considering RL7 also but haven't bought it. dies are simple Lee dies. looking to take large game inside of 200 yards. have never loaded rimmed cartridge befor.Hornady states to trim brass even shorter than the reloading manual specs beacause of this bullet design, i don't get it...why
Do i bell the case like .45 acp??
normal to not have expander ball? (feel silly but had to ask)
Does the seater crimp like the .45acp dies?
Opening guess is 54.5gr of IMR 4064 and 54 of 4320.
All suggestions welcome!! Thank you Forum!
Cheers,
doc
 
I loaded some very similar 300 grain Berry's bullets in my 45-70 last year. But haven't messed with it since. I recall belling the case so the bullet will seat. Crimp is up to you if you have a cannilure.. I used Reloader-7. Accuracy? Hard to tell with open sights, but seemed adequate as I remember.. I trimmed as normal.. I am contemplating a scope for the next go round..

Now you kow what I know, which isn't much..
 
I dont have the latest hornady manual.I have used h4198 with good success,however the FTX bullet is fairly new and in between the 300 and 350 in my book.I like the 300's for the sake of recoil and always load as if it was a trapdoor springfield.This way I get to keep my shoulder and ear drums. I dont see any imfo on imr 4320 or 4064. Imr 3031 is one of the go to powders and the book tells me that 40.9 -52 grains is it for trapdoor loads with the 300 jacketed flat point.If you hot the loads up for flatter trajectory,you will soon understand what recoil is all about. Personally I wouldnt do it. Another issue is the seating die.Seat first and then remove the stem and crimp.Yes the seater is a dual purpose tool. Do not use real old cases from yesteryear as some are balloon head cases.With modern loads it would be catastophic if you loaded these case's with a good stout charge. If the marlin is new enough and has ballard rifling,you can shoot cast bullets which are a good choice.If it is micro groove,only use jacketed bullets as the micro groove doesnt stabilize the bullets .The micro groove is so scant a rifling that the lead bullets will strip through the rifling and wont be accurate with in 1 minute of barn. Doc you can call me after 7:15 pm est and I will try to guide you through it. In a ruger#1 and #3 you can almost be equivalent to the mighty .458 win mag and these are the only guns that can do it. Everything else is considered to weak for the loads for the rugers.Be careful and work up slowly till you get good accuracy and not to much recoil.
 
You can use IMR 4064 but you will not get the best results with it. IMR 4198 is the best I have used with 300 to 350 gr bullets in the 45-70. 49.9 grs IMR 4198 with a Sierra 300 gr HP gets 2100 fps and hits like the hammer of Thor and is about all the recoil you will want. With the 325 gr bullet I would not go over 47 grs IMR 4198. Wolf primers have given me very good accuracy in every caliber I have used them in. Just make sure that you seat them firm. It is my understanding that the 325 FTX bullet is a softer bullet that works well on deer size game.If you are going after large heavy bone game like elk or big bears I would go with the 350 gr Hornady. It is a tougher constricted bullet. But then again I shoot a Sharps rifle in 45-70 and with black powder and cast bullets from 418 grs at 1400 fps to a little over 500 grs around 1100 fps and I have not seen anything in North America game wise that they will not drill a hole completely through from any direction out to considerable yardage. A bowling ball don't have to be going too fast to put the hurt on something.
 
jonbearman said:
I dont have the latest hornady manual.I have used h4198 with good success,however the FTX bullet is fairly new and in between the 300 and 350 in my book.I like the 300's for the sake of recoil and always load as if it was a trapdoor springfield.This way I get to keep my shoulder and ear drums. I dont see any imfo on imr 4320 or 4064. Imr 3031 is one of the go to powders and the book tells me that 40.9 -52 grains is it for trapdoor loads with the 300 jacketed flat point.If you hot the loads up for flatter trajectory,you will soon understand what recoil is all about. Personally I wouldnt do it. Another issue is the seating die.Seat first and then remove the stem and crimp.Yes the seater is a dual purpose tool. Do not use real old cases from yesteryear as some are balloon head cases.With modern loads it would be catastophic if you loaded these case's with a good stout charge. If the marlin is new enough and has ballard rifling,you can shoot cast bullets which are a good choice.If it is micro groove,only use jacketed bullets as the micro groove doesnt stabilize the bullets .The micro groove is so scant a rifling that the lead bullets will strip through the rifling and wont be accurate with in 1 minute of barn. Doc you can call me after 7:15 pm est and I will try to guide you through it. In a ruger#1 and #3 you can almost be equivalent to the mighty .458 win mag and these are the only guns that can do it. Everything else is considered to weak for the loads for the rugers.Be careful and work up slowly till you get good accuracy and not to much recoil.
Click to expand...

Micro-groove guns will shoot cast well too. It is just a problem of sizing and hardness. Run them a little fatter than usual and experiment with hardness and they can be made to shoot cast well. I helped a buddy work out a bullet for a microgroove 444 Marlin and it shot well once we got the size and hardness right.

If you are buying off the shelf cast bullets though, you are right, don't bother with cast in a MG barrel.
 
Thank you to all for the info. i got the 4064/4320 load from the 1979 speer reloading manual. i am going to go look for Imr3031 or Imr4198. in the mean time i am gonna make a couple of dummy rounds and make sure they cycle well and otherwise functional. i am hoping to avoid gaining yet another powder and escpecially one that would be so single purpose. i have no desire to shoot or own a 45-70. i like the idea of seating and then crimping. i think i amgonna need the crimp because of the lever action.
cheers,
doc
 
I shot H322, Re 7, H4198 and IMR 3031 in my Marlin and Browning 45-70's and I can say one thing, don't load above 1800 fps to begin with as the recoil starts to get wicked and the finger lever will actually bruise your finger. That old cartridge was not made to shoot across canyons with and I guarantee any animal shot with a 300 grain bullet at 1800 fps or so will feel the hurt! If at 1800 fps everything seems good, start working up to where your shoulder and fingers say "nuff!" Tom :'(
 
thx tom and all,
i made 2 dummy rounds up, got the dies adjusted brass trimmed and sorted. gonna prime tomorrow and pick up some i4198 or i3031 than we will get some loaded up. thnak you again to all for the help. this is a BIG round!! back up plan will be RL7 i guess.
cheers,
doc
 
"That old cartridge was not made to shoot across canyons"

Oh yes it was. In the trials for a cartridge fired weapon in the 1870s the Army chose the Trapdoor Springfield 45-70 because with a 500 gr bullet propelled with 70 grs black powder it would do a little over 1100 fps and at 1000 yards would penetrate 6" pine logs set on a 45* angle and would go about a foot into the sand on the other side. That is the reason that they have those long ladder back sights. Once you find your range and get your sights set for it I would not want to be standing out in the open 500 to 1000 yards away and let some of my buddies shoot at me with their Trapdoors, Sharps, Remington rolling blocks and Winchester high walls loaded with cast bullets and black powder.

Get yourself a limbsaver recoil pad for that Marlin.
 
The 325 Hornady is easiest loaded in Hornady brass.
It (325 Hornacy bullets) is the most accurate choice for me (in my rifle,Marlin,) but if I recall the Hornady brass may be 1/10 shorter.
Been some time but I recall an odd problem with their bullets in another's brass. I recall thinking this was done so you had to purchase their brass. All I recall was a problem that could be overcome.
It is a rifle that is strictly for any bear problem at home so I've loaded a bunch, got my accurate load, and now they sit for the intended purpose so my reloading them in the near future is unlikely therefore whatever the problem was that I can't recall will not be answered by me soon.
 
In the 45-70 RL7 works well, as does 4198 or H322. Used Unique in light load hard cast 420 gr bullet, to shoot way out past 1000 yds. Watching bullets skip 3 times like a flat rock across water in the desert sands. Thousands of rounds of low velocity 420 cast, in 45-70, old Marlin 95, easy on recoil but penetrates and goes the distance for long range plinking, across canyon rock breaking, or ice shooting ....or low velocity pure lead for mud shooting. Just purchased another progressive press, the first rounds out of it are 45-90, with 500 gr bullets at 1810 fps, followed by a bunch of 300 gr nosler & hornady. Using 4198 3 lbs later. You have to bell tbe cases load just like pistol cases in both old calibers...have fun.
 
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