45-70 and bp question
- Thread starter mdram
- Start date
mike mccormick
Silver $$ Contributor
When using BP, there can be no void space. It should always be a compressed load. Reduced loads should be achieved by use of a vegetable fiber wad between the bullet and powder.
Get ahold of a Lyman black powder loading manual. It will have most of the information you need.
lawman29
Gold $$ Contributor
Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook.
SPG Lubricants BP Cartridge Reloading Primer https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/225/1/BOOK-SPG
SPG Lubricants BP Cartridge Reloading Primer https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/225/1/BOOK-SPG
i have this book, and didnt think about it, but will order the bp book also
XTR
F-TR obssessed shooting junkie
You have more to learn than you can imagine at this point.
It's the forum for Shiloh, but the knowledge there regarding shooting the Holy Black is as deep as the precision shooting knowledge here. Like any interwebz site there is some chaff to sort.
This site is the tome for knowledge on casting, and casting is as important as the other stuff when it comes to getting a BPCR to shoot.
For lube, use natural lubes for BP that don't contain petroleum based stuff. Cleaning up a BPCR is actually really easy, all it takes is water most times because the natural lubes make fouling that will clean up with plain water, the petrol stuff will make fouling that you need cleaners to dissolve. My advice is to use SPG lube. Someday you may try something else, or not.
Casting. Hard cast bullets rarely work, they never have for me. I've melted all the ones I had down and use them to alloy in soft lead. Most people have success with about 18:1 to 20:1 if I recall correctly. (that's pretty soft) I've been away from my casting pot for a few of yrs now, (trying hard to change that)
Shooting 405ish bullets you're going to want 60 to 70 gr of 1.5F or 2F powder. In the last few yrs I've seen some mention of guys trying 3F for long range stuff. Stick with 1.5F to 2F. Swiss, Schutzen, Goex are all good.
Minimum brass sizing, don't squish the lead bullet. Long range guys don't even size, they slip fit on top of the wad.
Grease Groove Bullets (GG) should be about .001 to .002 over groove size. In modern firearms you can almost bet that a .459 will work, and a .460 will for sure, but not guaranteed. Some of the Italian barrels have been reported to be not exactly .458 every time.
BP burns well with some compression. Usually seen answers that say compress with a wad in the range of .050 to .200 depending on all the variables in your setup.
If you get into Paper Patching (PP) that's a whole 'nuther world.
Edit: and if you want to see just how far you can push a modern 45-70 get Paul Mathews book(s) starting with "Forty Years with the .45/70"
It's the forum for Shiloh, but the knowledge there regarding shooting the Holy Black is as deep as the precision shooting knowledge here. Like any interwebz site there is some chaff to sort.
This site is the tome for knowledge on casting, and casting is as important as the other stuff when it comes to getting a BPCR to shoot.
For lube, use natural lubes for BP that don't contain petroleum based stuff. Cleaning up a BPCR is actually really easy, all it takes is water most times because the natural lubes make fouling that will clean up with plain water, the petrol stuff will make fouling that you need cleaners to dissolve. My advice is to use SPG lube. Someday you may try something else, or not.
Casting. Hard cast bullets rarely work, they never have for me. I've melted all the ones I had down and use them to alloy in soft lead. Most people have success with about 18:1 to 20:1 if I recall correctly. (that's pretty soft) I've been away from my casting pot for a few of yrs now, (trying hard to change that)
Shooting 405ish bullets you're going to want 60 to 70 gr of 1.5F or 2F powder. In the last few yrs I've seen some mention of guys trying 3F for long range stuff. Stick with 1.5F to 2F. Swiss, Schutzen, Goex are all good.
Minimum brass sizing, don't squish the lead bullet. Long range guys don't even size, they slip fit on top of the wad.
Grease Groove Bullets (GG) should be about .001 to .002 over groove size. In modern firearms you can almost bet that a .459 will work, and a .460 will for sure, but not guaranteed. Some of the Italian barrels have been reported to be not exactly .458 every time.
BP burns well with some compression. Usually seen answers that say compress with a wad in the range of .050 to .200 depending on all the variables in your setup.
If you get into Paper Patching (PP) that's a whole 'nuther world.
Edit: and if you want to see just how far you can push a modern 45-70 get Paul Mathews book(s) starting with "Forty Years with the .45/70"
oh, i do not intend to cast, i dont see me shooting it enough to make that economical.
right now im just researching bp vs smokeless, i may do both, im not sure yet
with the powder shortage bp is intriguing
im currently looking at an h&r 1871 buffalo classic 32" barrel
if not that then most likley a henry single shot
right now im just researching bp vs smokeless, i may do both, im not sure yet
with the powder shortage bp is intriguing
im currently looking at an h&r 1871 buffalo classic 32" barrel
if not that then most likley a henry single shot
XTR
F-TR obssessed shooting junkie
I've do both, I have two '74 sharps (one C Sharps one Pedersoli) and a modern Winchester (Miroku) highwall. I shoot smokeless in the Highwall. The problem with smokeless loads in a 45-70 is that the case is HUGE and the capacity for silly is also. Finding a bullet powder combo that works for you is trickier. There will be void space in the case you need a power that is OK with that. You can't get to 100% fill with anything that will actually burn completely. As soon as that big bullet starts moving pressure drops fast. Things as "slow" as Varget and many of the other usuall suspects for 308 sized cases leave a trail of unburned powder in the bore.
I settled on a load of 3031 under a 405 jacketed bullet in my Win. The 45-70 has the ballistics of a howitzer. If you have a 100 yard zero it's going to drop 16 to 24 inches at 200 yards depending on load and bullet. When you consider that pretty much every modern bottle necked rifle case made drops ~3 inches that's a significant difference.
IMR3031, Rx7, AA5744, are all good choices to try if you go that route.
I settled on a load of 3031 under a 405 jacketed bullet in my Win. The 45-70 has the ballistics of a howitzer. If you have a 100 yard zero it's going to drop 16 to 24 inches at 200 yards depending on load and bullet. When you consider that pretty much every modern bottle necked rifle case made drops ~3 inches that's a significant difference.
IMR3031, Rx7, AA5744, are all good choices to try if you go that route.
XTR
F-TR obssessed shooting junkie
Not so much smokeless and BP but lead and copper are a bad combo. Personally never done it. My '74s get lead and my Win gets jacketed. I've read more than once that any residual copper in the bore will cause leading if you shoot lead afterwards.
With BP just remember to clean after every range trip, but as I mentioned above, it's easy if you don't use petrol based lubes.
With BP just remember to clean after every range trip, but as I mentioned above, it's easy if you don't use petrol based lubes.
Ive only ever loaded BP in a muzzle loader. but what little ive read it is way more dangerous to handle while reloading. I noticed that a powder thrower for BP has an aluminum hopper cause they say that static electricity from the plastic hopper can set off BP. I assume there are many safety precautions we that load smoke less powder are unaware of. A friend was hunting on a swam buggy and had a 12 gage muzzle down in the rifle rack and the rough country shook the load down the barrel and when fired blew up the gun. My friend lost a finger and a half and some eye sight in his right eye.
XTR
F-TR obssessed shooting junkie
Ebb, what happened to your friend might have happened with about any muzzle loader under those conditions; however, black is more reactive in an unpressurized condition.
Where if you light smokeless it burns, black flashes, the shockwave is faster, but the peak pressures are generally lower. (28,000 ish vs 2x that in smokeless), and sparks are supposed to be able to set off black.
Without digging it up I’ve read somewhere that smokeless converts something like 99% of its mass to gas while black converts something like 25% or 35% or something like that. That’s why you get so much fouling with black.
If you explore the BP boards there is a load that some 45/70 shooters use that’s some single digit grain load of Unique (7 comes to mind) in a 45/70 case with a 405 to simulate BP. Never tried it myself. I think it’s supposed to be about a 1000 fps popgun load.
Where if you light smokeless it burns, black flashes, the shockwave is faster, but the peak pressures are generally lower. (28,000 ish vs 2x that in smokeless), and sparks are supposed to be able to set off black.
Without digging it up I’ve read somewhere that smokeless converts something like 99% of its mass to gas while black converts something like 25% or 35% or something like that. That’s why you get so much fouling with black.
If you explore the BP boards there is a load that some 45/70 shooters use that’s some single digit grain load of Unique (7 comes to mind) in a 45/70 case with a 405 to simulate BP. Never tried it myself. I think it’s supposed to be about a 1000 fps popgun load.
pirate ammo
Guaranteed to take the wind out of their sails
We load some with 1.5 Swiss and also some with IMR3031. Works for me.
Rook 6
Silver $$ Contributor
Short answer is yes. You need lube to help keep BP fouling moist. Dry BP fouling is like sawdust and accuracy always suffers. In my experience, greatly suffers.
XTR
F-TR obssessed shooting junkie
what he said, even the guys who shoot paper patched bullets use lube cookies in the wad stack to keep the fouling ”soft”.
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