38 Special

[M-61]

Too many years ago to recall. 3 die RCBS. Can a roll crimp be applied with the bullet seating die or is a 4th die needed?

 

[Uncle Ed]

RCBS Carbide 3-Die Set has a Sizer Die with Decapping Unit, Expander Die for expanding and belling the case mouth and a Seater Die for seating and crimping the bullet,

If you plan to shoot plated bullets you may need the taper crimp die.

 

[Lefty Trigger]

If at all possible try to separate your bullet seating and crimping. While it can be done in a single die it can and will cause issues like damaged brass. All my "long" revolver type brass (38spl, 357mag, 44spl, 44mag) I seat the bullet with one die and crimp with another, either taper or roll. Good advice given above with the taper crimp unless loading for a lever rifle then roll crimp everything.

 

[M-61]

RCBS Carbide 3-Die Set has a Sizer Die with Decapping Unit, Expander Die for expanding and belling the case mouth and a Seater Die for seating and crimping the bullet,

If you plan to shoot plated bullets you may need the taper crimp die.

OK and thanks. The taper die will not taper enough to grasp the bullet.....I can turn it, but not remove it, with my fingers. I am doing something wrong with seating die for sure as I can't get it to roll a crimp in the cannelure at all. This is all the same dies that I loaded successfully with 35 years ago. I am trying to do this for a friend.

 

[jepp2]

I can turn it, but not remove it,

The neck tension should prevent you from turning the bullet. The taper crimp is to close the flare, not really increase the bullet hold. A roll crimp into a cannelure groove, is to prevent the primer from starting the bullet out of the case on the slow burning hard to ignite powder like H110 W296. You have something else going on.

 

[M-61]

The neck tension should prevent you from turning the bullet. The taper crimp is to close the flare, not really increase the bullet hold. A roll crimp into a cannelure groove, is to prevent the primer from starting the bullet out of the case on the slow burning hard to ignite powder like H110 W296. You have something else going on.

Thanks....what am I setting up wrong on the bullet seating die that it will NOT produce a roll crimp? I am really doing something out of whack here.

 

[Uncle Ed]

If the brass is old and well used it may be springing back after sizing. Lee makes undersized dies .002 to .003 smaller in diameter to make up for this.

So try sizing a case and then expand the case will minimum case mouth flair.
Next seat a bullet without crimping and try turning the bullet, if the bullet moves the case is not being sized small enough or the expander may be on the large size.

Always seat the bullet and crimp in two separate operations. This prevents loose bullets and bulged crimps.

After seating a bullet if the case looks wasp waisted like below the sizing die is reducing the case diameter enough. Below you can even see where the base of the bullet is inside the case.

 

[hoz53]

OK and thanks. The taper die will not taper enough to grasp the bullet.....I can turn it, but not remove it, with my fingers. I am doing something wrong with seating die for sure as I can't get it to roll a crimp in the cannelure at all. This is all the same dies that I loaded successfully with 35 years ago. I am trying to do this for a friend.

Something doesn’t sound right. Are you turning the seater/crimper down far enough in the press? It doesn’t sound like the sizer is sizing the brass down far enough to grip the bullet also. I wonder what the diameter of your bullets is?

Edit- I posted this before I saw Ed’s last post. What is happening OP

 

[M-61]

Always seat the bullet and crimp in two separate operations.

OK and thanks......does this mean seat the bullet, remove the seater stem, AND then roll crimp?

 

[Uncle Ed]

OK and thanks......does this mean seat the bullet, remove the seater stem, AND then roll crimp?

Just raise the seater stem and then crimp, you do not want the seater stem pushing on the bullet while crimping.

And if you want all the crimps to be the same then trim all the cases to the same length.

 

[M-61]

Just raise the seater stem and then crimp, you do not want the seater stem pushing on the bullet while crimping.

And if you want all the crimps to be the same then trim all the cases to the same length.

Understood and thank you....tomorrow I will be at it.

 

[243Lapua]

RCBS sells two part # of dies sets for 38 spl. One ìs roll crimp and the other is taper crimp. I just can't recall part number as I'm not in my reloading room. I do my crimping separate with a Lee factory crimp for 38 spl. I load basically Wadcutters for my Smith Wesson 52.

 

[riflewoman]

Most revolver cartridge die sets come from the factory with roll crimp seaters. You can seat and crimp simultaneously at the expense of accuracy ( about an inch at 50 yards, maybe). The final crimp should look something like the photo. If the bullets do not have a crimping groove you’ll need to buy a taper crimp die. To use that you’ll need to measure the final case mouth diameter. For 38 Special a typical crimps might be in the range of.374 to .370.

 

[Uncle Ed]

Seating and crimping at the same time can create problems, especially if the cases are not trimmed to the same length.

Pistol shooters with cases that headspace on the case mouth seldom trim their cases.

And Lee make a factory crimp die with a carbide ring in the base. This die is a cheat for all the pistol shooters who do not trim their cases. The problem is the longer cases that can bulge below the crimp and the carbide ring in the Lee die sizes the bulge at the crimp.

I trim all my rimmed revolver cases to insure a uniform crimp. Heavy loads get a roll crimp and light loads with plated bullets get a taper crimp. I expand my cases with a Lyman type "M" expanders that allow the bullets to start straight into the cases without tilting.

Below a Lyman type "M" expander, and normally I only bump the case mouth onto step "B" that is slightly larger than bullet diameter.

 

[mikeinct]

Trimming Rimmed Pistol cartridges is a pain...I just sort them by length on any accuracy loads ..Faster & the results are the same...Mike in Ct

 

[Rsadams]

The neck tension should prevent you from turning the bullet. The taper crimp is to close the flare, not really increase the bullet hold. A roll crimp into a cannelure groove, is to prevent the primer from starting the bullet out of the case on the slow burning hard to ignite powder like H110 W296. You have something else going on.

+1 the neck tension should hold it very tight... I have loaded a bunch of .38 for my wife.. I use Win 231 just because I have it for 9mm and it's position sensitive because I use so little down loading it for a Ruger LCR because it's very light weight pistol for practice rounds , so a good crimp is necessary or you will get unburned powder everytime especially using S/B primers... I am using Berry bullets , win 231 , any good primer and a Lee FCD...

I think I saw your rcbs dies have a taper crimp..?? Most have a roll crimp...

So just to help...

1. Your neck tension should hold the bullet very tight , it shouldn't move , so something is going on there.... Yet you will still need a good crimp...

2. Use a powder that fills the case as much as possible since this is an old black powder cartridge... This helps alot...

3. Use any good primer... Federal , Winchester or CCI...

4. A good tight crimp is your friend on this cartridge or you will get unburned powder or goofy inconsistent ignition problems , I can't express this enough... I use a roll crimp on it even though there's no canalure on Barry's bullets it doesn't hurt them if you don't get crazy...

5. If you decide to try another die set , the Lee 4 die set with the FCD is hard to beat.... If you use your rcbs dies , size and crimp in two separate steps always...

6. Although I absolutely hate it , I do trim my pistol brass to get a more consistent crimp... It sucks yes but you only have to do it once for the life of the brass and normally that life is long.... You will find lengths of pistol brass all over the place...

7. Useing about 4 spare bullets check your crimp by turning the die in ( quarter turns ) pulling the bullets afterwards to see the crimp and how much it's deforming the bullet..This way you know exactly how much crimp is being applied... Of course don't install primers or powder...

Your neck tension is the first thing I would address , the rest of this stuff solved alot of problems for me... I don't know why you're getting such loose neck tension unless you're setting the die up wrong , you shouldn't be able to twist or move the bullet once seated , the crimp just helps hold it , I know you're a experienced loader but you might want to recheck the setup... You don't want a bullet recoiling forward out of the case and locking the cylinder etc...

EDIT....
IF your useing a powder like Win 231 that only fills the case about a quarter of the way , make damn sure you check EVERY CASE with a flashlight etc before loading , It is EXTREMELY EASY to get a double charge and not catch it because the case will only be half full with a double charge... Because of this , after I dump powder I seat a bullet and move on to the next case... I don't load a loading block full like 9mm , with 9mm if you double charged the case would be over flowing , with .38 it won't be...WATCH FOR THIS...

Hope any of this helps....
Shawn

 

[M-61]

I raised the seater stem way up. Maybe 6 out of 10 got a moderate roll crimp (certainly to hold the bullet securely) but the remainder do not have a trace of a roll even starting and I can still revolve the bullet. I have the die set so that there is a considerable 'cam over' feel as the die touches the shell holder. Shell holder is a RCBS#6 that measures .250 thickness. I then ran the die down deeper so it would not cam over with, of course, no change as the case is entering the die even less.
The brass is mixed with no known history. (I also have, for some reason, a taper die but it does Nothing at all).
My only thought was to have him bring over some brass that was new, fired in his pistol, and see what I get. I have no idea what I am doing wrong, and I appreciate all the advice.

(Rsadams advice about double charging was absolutely in my mind while loading.)

EDIT: I just took an empty piece (NO bullet) of brass from the same bunch and ran it intio the seater. It produced a perfect roll crimp. BTW I am loading 110 gr bullets

 

[pirate ammo]

I use a separate crimp die on all my handgun loads, LEE type, lead and plated, mild to medium roll crimp, semi-auto rounds, very little, just enough to get the case flare out.
I'm like Rsadams above, watch your powder, and both of us load thousands of rounds of handgun stuff,,

 

[rkittine]

I always buy the 4 die carbide sets for pistol loading for all the reasons given. The tapered crimp is important on all the cartridges that head space on the case lip and not on a rim as with the .38/.357 etc.

Bob

 

[Baddog0302]

What is the OD of your expander plug ? NOT the flair area but below that ? You might be expanding your brass to much for your bullet's. An easy fix is to put the expander stem and plug in a drill and with a fine file remove .002 from the body.