38 Smith and Wesson Cartridge?

[jr600yd]

I don’t have one of these pistols but thank you Laurie for the info.

 

[riflewoman]

While the 38/200 was based in the 38S&W, I can’t really recommend that you shoot any “British” loads in your old revolver. Thes 5 shot top break revolvers were made at the cusp of the smokeless/black powder era and aren’t stout enough for the “British” loadings. Recoil will be stout as well.

you could get 38S&W ammo up until recently and it was loaded with a 146 grain Lead bullet at around 700 fps or so. These should be ok for, at least occasional, use. These old top break revolvers were only meant for occasional use anyway.

 

[Woofie]

Alongside being a popular self-defence round in the UK and US, the British Army adopted the Enfield No.2 series of break-open revolvers in the early 30s shooting a heavy bullet variant of the 38 S&W called .38/200 (from the 200gn bullet), and it was the standard British military sidearm for around 30 years. It replaced the similar design, but larger/heavier Webley MkVI and its .455 cartridge.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enfield_No._2

The little 38 S&W round was no manstopper, but it was hoped the heavy soft lead bullet would make up for its deficiencies to some extent. Then when war looked likely in the late 30s, people got cold feet over whether there would be accusations that the round broke the Hague Convention rules on expanding bullets in war. So a 178gn FMJ jacketed bullet replaced the lead variety just before WW2. (In WW1, the Germans threatened to treat the 455 as an illegal round because of the lead bullet and were prepared to start shooting any captured officers carrying the revolver and its ammunition. IIRC, the Brits counter-threatened by saying they'd shoot a German officer PoW for every one of theirs executed.) In any event, it was taken seriously in 1938/39, hence the jacketed bullet version.

The 38 MKIIz 178gn FMJ cartridge was useless in any practical situation. It was notorious for failing to propel bullets right through the barrel and stacking bullets up in it until the cylinder locked up. (To be fair, much of that was probably post-war with old ammunition when revolvers and ammo were sold off as surplus.) I used to shoot with a fellow in the early 80s who was an infantry 2nd lieutenant in the 1960s and took part in the 'police action' in Aden against Arab insurgents who eventually forced the Brits out. This was like an early IS or whatever event with hyped-up and fundamentalist fighters attacking sole or small groups of soldiers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aden_Emergency

My friend was walking down a street with an NCO who was carrying a 7.62 L1A1 rifle (British Army version of the FN FAL) when they were charged out of nowhere by an insurgent running at them head-on, full pelt and swinging what my friend called a 'bloody great knife'. The NCO 'froze', and the lieutenant emptied his 38 S&W service revolver into the man's torso, the last shot when he was almost in touching distance. It didn't stop or even slow him and he nearly killed the officer who lost an ear. He was down on one knee having just dodged the first swipe and was helpless as the attacker swivelled and raised the knife for a second go. Luckily, the corporal 'unfroze' at this point and shot the Arab with his rifle at around 6ft range. ('That stopped him OK!' said my friend.)

Anyway, when he was discharged from hospital, his first act was to throw 'the bloody useless revolver' into the harbour as soon as it got dark ('lost in action') and replace it with a 9mm Browning 'Hi-Power', also carried a rifle whenever he could. He was told that afterwards that he'd got five good central hits on the guy, none of which exited. No doubt he'd have bled out soon afterwards from his wounds, but too late for my mate.

I bought a mint 1934 dated Enfield in original unissued condition still with the high foresight blade for the 200gn bullet installed sometime in the mid or late 80s. Reduced to £35 from £50 by my local gunshop as it wasn't getting any takers. A very nice little pistol and I got the reloading gear, but it wasn't exactly accurate due to the bullet issue. As @S_Kyle says they take larger dia. bullets and none were available here then. Thousands were sold off in Britain after WW2 as surplus. mostly the less desirable D/A spur-less model, for as little as just a couple of pounds if dealers bought them in bulk. I'm pretty sure I saw a surplus wartime US made S&W revolver too in 38S&W. IIRC we bought thousands of what was normally a 38 Spcl revolver under the Lend-Lease arrangements as RSAF Enfield Lock couldn't make anything like enough of them in 1939/40. (Enfield Lock was later turned over to making nothing but 303 Bren LMGs for most of the war once new factories or suppliers were set up for its other smallarms.)

I too owned a 38S&W Webley revolver. Low velocity, non-expanding bullet, don't know why anyone would hope it would stop an enragaed, drugged or drunk assailant. Versus the Webley 455 Manstopper bullet, a double-ended HBWC, basically. I used to swage similar for my 2.5"barreled, k-frame but S&W M29. Not anymore, home-made ammo is a *bad* choice for defence. BUT, a similar bullet for police, not military, woulkd have enhanced the 38S&W significantly.

 

[dellet]

I can't speak for the 38 S&W, but a 32 S&W(short) with what would be considered normal hardness of lead for a black powder 85 grain bullet, will flatten to about 40 caliber and tumble through about 14" of gel with an impact velocity of 680 fps.

Shot into an 8"x 8"x 18" block the bullet always exited the side between 10-14"

Harder lead like what is now called hardcast, would pencil right through the same block.

Might not stop someone hyped up on drugs immediately, but will sure ruin most people day or at least change their attitude. Certainly better than harsh language.

President McKinley was assassinated with a 32 S&W

The .41 rimfires were also pretty deadly at card table distances.

 

[divingin]

Since nobody else posted it, Info on the cartridge itself:

.38 S&W - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

In particular, note the bullet diameter. It's not a short .38 Special cartridge (.38 Spl uses a .357" bullet; .38 S&W is .361")

 

[scasa]

I was in a pawn shop in topeka ks monday and they had 3 boxes of 38 s&w new mfg.
I think it was magtec brand . They had more ammo than I had seen in a long time from .22 to 50 BMG

 

[HVFDFIREFIGHTER]

Don't have a pistol but do have a full box of Western X, 145gr Luballoy nickle plated 38 S&W ammo. Guess my mom found it in the house years after my dad died but he never had a 38 S&W. Back of box it lists velocity of 685fps & 150ft lbs energy.

I have a 38 smith and wesson, top break action. found cases from starline. 145 grain lead bullets. federal match small pistol primers. cant find HP38 or WIN 231. Did get CFE Pistol and Titgroup. but cant find any load data for those two powders.

 

[HVFDFIREFIGHTER]

I have a 38 smith and wesson, top break action. found cases from starline. 145 grain lead bullets. federal match small pistol primers. cant find HP38 or WIN 231. Did get CFE Pistol and Titgroup. but cant find any load data for those two powders.

 

[bpd459]

Greetings,
I just got this S&W after my dads passing 2 weeks ago. It has been in the family since the 1930’s. I knew I had a box of ammo in my “collectible” box. I’m going to shoot 5rds and put it away.

 

[JSH]

Many many seem to think the 38 SW were rechambered or cut to accept 38 Special, as mentioned ain’t gonna happen as the 38SW is the larger of the two. Yup 38 special will drop right in, that do t make it correct.
Interesting this thread came up as I had a discussion on the subject with two different people the past couple of weeks.

 

[Walt Krafft]

I just got a S&W 33-1 from my father-in-law. Nice little revolver.

 

[riflewoman]

Many many seem to think the 38 SW were rechambered or cut to accept 38 Special, as mentioned ain’t gonna happen as the 38SW is the larger of the two. Yup 38 special will drop right in, that do t make it correct.
Interesting this thread came up as I had a discussion on the subject with two different people the past couple of weeks.

There were some British “Victory S&W” pistols in 38 S&aw rechambered for 38 special so they could be sold more readily in the US.

 

[JSH]

There were some British “Victory S&W” pistols in 38 S&aw rechambered for 38 special so they could be sold more readily in the US.

I have seen several examples and have owned one. All they did was ream the cylinder to match the length of the 38 special, still a large sloppy over sized fit. Buldged even split cases were not uncommon. Some shot surprisingly well for what the were.
Those that fire the 38 Special in 38SW, hard extraction is the result of the long case actually being in the 38SW throat with no room for the case to release projectile.
Repeated use with 38+P use will stretch them. An older LEO buddy of mine has one that he shot for years, lol it pretty much rattles when you shake it.