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.357 Magnum SS rifle

COLT45SA

Silver $$ Contributor
I have an 1885 low-wall Winchester that is having its 24-1/2" barrel relined to .357 Magnum. The twist in the liner is 1:10. I'll be looking for loading advice for both lead and jacketed bullets in terms of bullet weight, powder brand, and powder charge.
I would be sincerely appreciative of any and all recommendations
 
I have an 1885 low-wall Winchester that is having its 24-1/2" barrel relined to .357 Magnum. The twist in the liner is 1:10. I'll be looking for loading advice for both lead and jacketed bullets in terms of bullet weight, powder brand, and powder charge.
I would be sincerely appreciative of any and all recommendations
Colt -

Howdy !

I had a Marlin M1894SC .357Mag ( blued ). I shot my favorite all-time .357Mag load in it, that I have been shooting in S & W "N" frames .357Mags of 4", 5"; and 6" barrel length variously.... since 1975.

I shoot 14.5gr WW296 ( H110 same stuff ) and SP Magnum primer under a Lyman FP SWC of 158-172gr.
Other's cast 158SWCs have also shot well. This happens to be the minimum charge of WW296 recommended for the .357Mag w/ 158gr bullet in their former Winchester ( Olin ) hand-out reloading pamphlets. It has always shot great for me / my guns. This includes in the M1894 carbine I had.


With regards,
357Mag
 
Check out a couple of your reloading manuals or on-line ones, i.e. Hornady Load Data. Plenty of info on loads and bullet weight/style.
I also shoot 357 and 45 colt in carbines and #3 Ruger, pretty hot with heavy bullets. Got a good friend who's a real falling block freak. Has a closet full of them and I trust his judgement, he says he wouldn't shoot any of my loads in his low walls, says if you go over 30k psi it will stretch the frame in low walls, even the new ones. Says it's a fact of design in the low wall. I don't know this for a fact but I would do some research on it, I trust his judgement.... John
 
I also shoot 357 and 45 colt in carbines and #3 Ruger, pretty hot with heavy bullets. Got a good friend who's a real falling block freak. Has a closet full of them and I trust his judgement, he says he wouldn't shoot any of my loads in his low walls, says if you go over 30k psi it will stretch the frame in low walls, even the new ones. Says it's a fact of design in the low wall. I don't know this for a fact but I would do some research on it, I trust his judgement.... John
Miroku low walls have been made in a bunch of 60k psi standard bolt face rounds and would be proofed for much higher than that. I have no interest in loosening primer pockets on my low walls, but I trust they'll be fine with standard loads and tend to run under book max for a little added cushion. That said, 30k sounds way low.
 
When in doubt, pay attention to the effort needed to open the chamber after firing a shot. There should not be any resistance upon opening. I have a Low Wall circa 1893 and even my little Hornet loads needed to be backed off a grain.
 
If you can not load the 357 Mag lke a rifle, especially in a single shot rifle, you are wasting you time in even building it. Probably the best bullet for a 357 Mag rifle is the 200 grain, RCBS Hard Cast powder coated, will do 2,000 fps and 3/10 nch at 100 using H-110 or 296 you can do the same with the 200 Round Nose jackted. Use a taper crimp, as a seperate crimp station after seating.
This is my 357 SM Martini Cadet Walnut gun, with 1-12 twst barrel. One of two I built because I was told it could not be done. The second is a big leaf maple stripe. The Cadet is a BP, 50k falling block action.
 

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I also shoot 357 and 45 colt in carbines and #3 Ruger, pretty hot with heavy bullets. Got a good friend who's a real falling block freak. Has a closet full of them and I trust his judgement, he says he wouldn't shoot any of my loads in his low walls, says if you go over 30k psi it will stretch the frame in low walls, even the new ones. Says it's a fact of design in the low wall. I don't know this for a fact but I would do some research on it, I trust his judgement.... John
My 1885 Win was built in 1892 when steel was not that great. I read an article by a fellow who has written several books and he claims that the maximum pressure cartridge I can shoot safely is 40,000psi
 
My 1885 Win was built in 1892 when steel was not that great. I read an article by a fellow who has written several books and he claims that the maximum pressure cartridge I can shoot safely is 40,000psi
I would be interested in the Authors name and titles of his books.
 
I have an 1885 low-wall Winchester that is having its 24-1/2" barrel relined to .357 Magnum. The twist in the liner is 1:10. I'll be looking for loading advice for both lead and jacketed bullets in terms of bullet weight, powder brand, and powder charge.
I would be sincerely appreciative of any and all recommendations
Every load manual has 357 mag load data. Plus John Taffin has tons of articles on 357 lever guns.
Dave Scoville Lever Guns...I have the 1886 manual for my 45-90... But loads for every 1886 cartridge up to 50-110.
Paco Kelly, Lever guns...he pushes the pressure limits. Real Guns site has load data, Steve's guns load data. Mike Ventrino has books and articles on a variety of old single shots, lever guns, and revolvers
Gun Blast site shoots a variety of guns, and load data. The 357 is a modern caliber compared to the ones these old guns were chambered in. So adjust accordingly, like low pressure starting loads.
I don't shoot the 357 but in one Colt revolver, and use a variety of published data . I'm a 45 Colt guy, in revolvers and an old Winchester safety free 45 Colt 16" lever action. .45 colt brass is strong use it in full power 454 loads and 400 gr bullets. I milled the heads on WW 44 Mag the thinest WW 45 Colt in the middle and 454 the thickest case heads...each increase was .010 in thickness.
It's the actions that vary in strength and the age of those actions, with respect to modern steels, vs older alloys for frames. 92s and 86s take more pressure than 94s especially if made after WW 1. 85 Low- wall does okay in the pressure department if I remember correctly...but their are a bunch of articles and information on this action to confirm this, for an action in good condition.
 
You have to be really careful with old guns and data. This is a pretty good example of why.

The 1885 action was designed as a black powder cartridge rifle. That in itself won't disqualify it for high pressure loads.

The Low wall version is a modified High wall. The modification was to cut off the portion of the frame directly behind the bore to ease use of smaller cartridges. The portion of the beech block that needs the most support, has none.The frame was originally forged and case hardened.

The next modification was after Smokeless powder was introduced. Instead of case hardening, the steel was heat treated. Presumably this was done to correct problems that started to show up due to the higher pressures.

Generally, when talking about converting to smokeless loads, it's the later, post 90,0000 serial numbered actions designed for the higher pressures that are advised.

Then you get into load data and max pressure data. A lot of whats out there was written pre 1970. That's an important date because prior to that time, most data was published in CUP. Every one looks back a data from P.O. Ackley and talks about him loading extremely hot loads. When you factor in the difference of measurement, CUP and piezoelectric, the loads weren't that hot.

If you look at the 357 magnum, SAAMI CUP pressure is 45,000 and Piezoelectric, currently the standard, is 35,000 psi.

Looking at data and articles written in the hay day of converting old single shots to varmint rifles, it needs to be taken on context.

Frank De Hass was a very well published writer in the 60's and his work is still respected today. He wrote an article in 1965 that was later published as a chapter in his 1969 book, Single shot rifles and actions.

He goes into detail on the Low Wall and the pressures it can handle safely. In his opinion, Factory loads of 45,000 pounds are safe in the heat treated action. The problem is, the method of arriving at that number is not stated. in 1965, it would have been common knowledge, CUP. Interestingly enough, 45,000 is SAAMI max for CUP method of testing.

In 1983, another De Haas book was published. "Mr Single shot's Gunsmith Idea's". That same 1965 article was in the new book, although revised. The 45,000 pound reference was removed, "factory 357 loads" remained. That would seem to indicate enough confusion over the original text warranted a removal, to prevent a 45,000 psi load being assumed safe.

SAAMI still lists CUP and PSI max loads for cartridges of the day. It's well worth the time when looking at old data to find out what the max pressure indicates.

A lot of people shoot antiques, I shoot a lot of them. Opinions vary greatly over what is safe and what is not. The problem is that being wrong, is often found the hard way.

Stay safe.
 
Why a 1:10 twist? That seems awfully fast for a .357 carbine.
I thought the twist rate was a bit fast too. Problem is I sent the rifle off to a fellow who said he could do the conversion to .38 Special and we never discussed the twist rate. When the work was done is when I found out what the rate was.
I, unlike many other shooters, am not concerned with muzzle velocity. My main objective is accuracy~! At 100-150 yards a 158 gr bullet shouldn't be affected very much by wind (unless you're in a gale).
 
It sounded too fast to me also, but maybe that 170-180 grain bullet JSH mentioned needs a faster twist.
I've always believed that heavier bullets needed a faster twist too so I've been looking to buy a small quantity of the heaviest bullet I can find to try them out.
 
Why a 1:10 twist? That seems awfully fast for a .357 carbine.
The rifle is a single shot "rifle" with a 25-1/2" barrel. I didn't pick the twist rate, and I don't think the smith gave the twist rate any consideration. We never discussed that. I just specified the caliber. It turned out to be .38 Special, and I only found out what the twist rate was after the rifle was delivered and the smith had been paid.
Live and learn~!
 
We shoot A LOT of 357 in Rifles.

(haven’t read the entire thread)

I assume you are going to use for medium size game around 200 yards.

We shoot A LOT of 357. 180gr XTP at 200 yards or closer should be fine and can be loaded quite accurate. We have had really good results with HS-6.

I don’t have any expience with lead in 357 but do know that people get really good accuracy with 200gr lead to 200 yards also but your going to be traveling much slower.

It’s a single shot so I believe some manufactures make spire point bullets that you can get much better BC numbers out of. Even with those though your going to run out of steam REALLY fast much past 200 yards.

Good luck! :)
 

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