338 Norma or 338 Norma Ackley?

[rpierce]

Reloader 33 or VV N570 will hit those speeds no problem. I hit 3200 w h1000 before I saw any pressure signs with the 215.

 

[rpierce]

That's called "advertising" ……….. (due to the 215 berger at 3300 fps being an absolute laser beam.)

No its called look at the ballistics of a 215 @ 3300 fps. I won't be using my 28 nosler anymore after I get my lightweight 300 norma improved done in a few weeks. My heavy 300 improved has already proven to be one of the most accurate and easy to tune magnums Ive built. And Ive built a couple hundred 28 noslers. 300 norma improved Nodes are a mile wide and its averaging 3/4" @ 400 yards off the bipod. At 1400 yards a 28 nosler w a 195 at 3100 fps has 29.6 moa of drop, 62.2" of wind drift in a 10 mph wind and 1652 ft lbs of energy. The 300 improved w a 215 @3300 fps has 26.5 moa of drop, 62.3" of wind drift and 1952 ft lbs of energy. That's 16% more energy and 10% less drop with the 300 vs the 28. And its has much longer barrel life and much better brass than the 28. The 300 has almost no throat erosion compared to the 28. My 300 so far has had about .004 throat erosion every hundred rounds compared to .010 for the 28 nosler. Its a no brainer for a hunting rifle if a guy can handle the recoil.

 

[rpierce]

If that's how you see it that's fine. I don't care. I was simply putting some info out there. The pressure for a 215 at 3200 w h1000 wasn't UP there. The case head and web only expanded .0005/half thou more and the primer pocket was just barely noticeably looser than 3100 fps. Reloader 33 and VV N570 is known for getting a solid 100+ fps gain. If my load w 570 ends up being 3250 Im not worried about it. Thats still moving. That's kind of the beauty of the improved. If you wanna juice it up for a hunting rifle you can and I will for my lightweight rifle since Ill only put 20 rounds a year through it. If a guy can't handle that recoil or in the case of my heavy rifle being the plinker I backed it down to 3125 fps and brass will last forever. The reamer Im using is the product of trying and testing 5 different improved reamer versions. This design was by far the easiest to tune, maintain and have less pressure. Ive got more 300 norma improved rifles in the books right now to build for customers than 28 noslers and Ive built more custom 28's than anyone else out there. With the addition of Lapua brass and Petersons new batch of brass it will be the most popular long range hunting cartridge when building a rifle from the ground up.

 

[rpierce]

No worries. I realize Im not the only one doing work with it and Im not here to disrespect you either. Just exchanging info as I see it. Im a very blunt person as well as I don't have time to beat around the bush. I was using a 26" 4 groove brux sendero barrel. For the case measurements I was using a micrometer also that I have in the shop. For a pure hunting rifle for big game, not deer size, it will be for my customers. 90% of the rifles I make are big magnums for long range hunting of big game. Quite a few other gunsmiths that I deal with are stating the same thing as me as far as popularity rising for the 300 norma. For a pure hunting rifle brass cost isn't an issue. Lapua and peterson brass is about $200 for a 100 pieces vs about $270 for 100 pieces of 28 nosler that doesn't last near as long. Buy a 100 pieces of brass and it will last you 20 years for a hunting rifle. Youll burn through way money than that at the bar/restaurants in that time frame. Heck a hunting rifle with brass that's $2 a piece is way cheaper than guys shooting PRS or fclass and go through thousands of rounds a year, lol.

Have a good one.
Ryan

 

[Zero333]

QL shows 3,075 fps from 26" bbl with RL-33 in the standard 300 Norma is right at max safe pressure.
Improve the case, use better brass with a good custom action and I see no reason why 3,300 fps can't be achieved safely.

btw... I love RL-33

 

[Anthony Lisby]

Long time reader/learner of all the top notch information on here! This is my first time posting as i finally joined.

I have a 300 Norma Improved 35°. Its built on a Badger Ordnance M2013, Manners T2A Elite Tactical, 28" Proof carbon Sendero, DE Mini slab 4 port brake, Seekins dbm, Geissle Super 700 2 stage, And aNF 7-35 ATACR in NF Xtreme duty medium ultralight rings. So all in all a pretty similar rifle to what Ryan builds and uses. And I can say with 100% confidence that his estimation of 215's at 3250fps-3300fps with RL33 or N570 is absolutely doable. I've been mainly using Berger target 230's right around 3150fps-3175fps depending on conditions with RL33. This is in formed Lapua 423 Dakota brass. The small sample of Bertram, 10pc, I have is just as tough as the Lapua when it comes to pressure but the weights aren't even close to consistent.... Not sure if it was a fluke or if that's just the way it is? Anyway, now that rifle season is over im thinking of switching over to the 215's from the 230's. With the "shorter" distances im hunting at, I feel the 215's extra velocity is something that I can use more than having a slightly higher BC with 230's. The few times I've actually leaned on the 215's with RL33 (cant find any n570 unfortunately) I've seen 3290's-3300fps without issues. From what it looks like i could have some usable velocity nodes at 3225-3230fps and 3275-3280fps. The Lapua 423 brass has produced well over 3200fps with the 230 Bergers and 225 ELD-M's in my rifle...all from a cartridge hovering around that 3.6" mark. Oh and yeah, its accurate!

 

[rpierce]

Long time reader/learner of all the top notch information on here! This is my first time posting as i finally joined.

I have a 300 Norma Improved 35°. Its built on a Badger Ordnance M2013, Manners T2A Elite Tactical, 28" Proof carbon Sendero, DE Mini slab 4 port brake, Seekins dbm, Geissle Super 700 2 stage, And aNF 7-35 ATACR in NF Xtreme duty medium ultralight rings. So all in all a pretty similar rifle to what Ryan builds and uses. And I can say with 100% confidence that his estimation of 215's at 3250fps-3300fps with RL33 or N570 is absolutely doable. I've been mainly using Berger target 230's right around 3150fps-3175fps depending on conditions with RL33. This is in formed Lapua 423 Dakota brass. The small sample of Bertram, 10pc, I have is just as tough as the Lapua when it comes to pressure but the weights aren't even close to consistent.... Not sure if it was a fluke or if that's just the way it is? Anyway, now that rifle season is over im thinking of switching over to the 215's from the 230's. With the "shorter" distances im hunting at, I feel the 215's extra velocity is something that I can use more than having a slightly higher BC with 230's. The few times I've actually leaned on the 215's with RL33 (cant find any n570 unfortunately) I've seen 3290's-3300fps without issues. From what it looks like i could have some usable velocity nodes at 3225-3230fps and 3275-3280fps. The Lapua 423 brass has produced well over 3200fps with the 230 Bergers and 225 ELD-M's in my rifle...all from a cartridge hovering around that 3.6" mark. Oh and yeah, its accurate!

That's great to hear. I had actually thought of using the 230's until I plugged in the info and compared them to the 215. The 230 didn't overtake the 215 til it was WAY out there. Around a mile if I recall correctly. Pretty much due to the velocity loss with not much higher of a bc compared to the 215. I was surprised at how consistent the 300 norma Lapua brass I have is. Weight wise and neck thickness consistency. Was well under .001 for thickness variation. Not worth neck turning with that kind of consistency.

FYI: As a side note it seems that LA50shooter deleted his conversations with me in this post. So if it looks like I was blabbering or talking to myself earlier in this thread that is why. I was merely responding to his questions and concerns. There was several responses back and forth that we had. None of which were heated though.

 

[rpierce]

Well I tried some VV N570 with 215 bergers in my norma improved yesterday. did a ladder/pressure test. ran out of charges at 3314 fps as I didn't think I would hit more than that charge without pressure. I thought I woulda hit 3300 with less powder. At 3314 the case web was .0005 bigger than the 3245 fps node, primer pockets were still tight, primers were rounded and bolt lift was butter. I didn't pursue the 3300+ area as the chrono showed a wide node at 3245 fps. I went and loaded up 4 rounds and shot them with an ES of 3. I sent the first 3 shots into 1.050"@400 off the bipod. I got excited on the fourth and shanked it to 1.8" total. In my defense it was 20 degrees and I didn't have gloves on. Waiting a minute or so between each shot my hands were numb by shot 4 LOL. The 3245 node had the same size case web as my 3100 fps h1000 load which was a cupcake load, primer pockets were still super tight, primers were rounded, bolt lift was butter. In my 15 lb rifle I could watch vapor trail go to the 400 yd target on some of the shots. spotting hits was an absolute breeze. N570 offered a much better fill ratio than h1000. My h1000 load absolutely hammered but the es was nowhere near the 570 load. I just finished my lightweight norma improved last night and will be putting a kahles k525i on it and commencing load development in a couple days. With a 215 berger at 3250 with single digit es, 1/4 moa accuracy off a bipod, barrel life that's alot longer than a 28 nosler, and Lapua brass that will hold up for a very long time this is the best long range elk combo in my opinion.

 

[Lonewolf74]

I would like to bring this thread back up cus right now I'm in the same boat.

I have all the components ordered for building my 338 Norma mag except a reamer because I have not decided between regular or an improved version.

I have some dummy rounds made up with Norma brass and 300 gr Bergers and made a cut out on a piece to know exactly where the bullet base is sitting in the case. I decided on 2.880 base to ogive (approx 3.75 oal) wich puts the the bullet bearing surface to boatail junct just ahead of the case neck to shoulder junction. The bullet base is approx .040 ahead of the case shoulder to body junction. I figured going with this would leave me .040 off the lands to work with on tuning seating depth before getting into the powder column. I know it could end up outside of this but with every other Berger bullet I've tuned theres been a sweet spot between 5 and 20 thou off the lands.

So my question here is would you have it throated so it's touching lands at the 2.88 cbto I've settled on or have it throated + some from there, for ex + .010 would put me at touching lands at 2.890?

Of course the flip side to that is I would not have more than .030 or so to chase the lands as they erode before running out of mag length. If touching lands is left at 2.88 I have approx .040 room in the mag. I know a lot of this really hinges on the seating depth sweet spot and I'm sort of banking on it being about .020 off.

Anyway that's my rambling thoughts for now and if anyone could give some advice and opinions I'd appreciate it.

Oh also if some more ppl have some numbers like charge weight and there velocity to help me decide on improved or not I'd appreciate that too. I'm not looking to go wild but like the idea of hitting 2900fps with a 300gr Berger.

Thanks guy's

 

[distantfoe]

In my case I really want to use the Norma case in any flavor, 300N, 300N imp, 338N, or 338N imp. I just can't net enough velocity over other standard calibers in the same class with powders that don't have issues.

 

[TikkaSporter]

Updates:

Still no Lapua Brass!!!!

Started barrel break-in using the 25 pieces of Norma-brand brass that I ordered earlier to make dummy rounds with. So far, I've only shot the 285 gr Hornady ELD-M's (Factory 2nd's/blems, at that). Don't want to waste expensive bullets with barrel break-in & fire forming.

My BTO measurement (in the chamber, as cut) with the 285 ELDM's is 2.792" which includes 0.019" of jump and results in ~ 3.600" COAL. This visually appears to put the bearing surface very near/slightly ahead of the neck-shoulder-junction.

To date the results have been excellent. Formed brass, Federal 215M primers, 285 ELDMs', and 100.5 gr of RL33 are producing consistent 1-hole groups at 100 yards, averaging 2926 fps (26" barrel). I've loaded up to 101.5 gr RL33 (2965 fps) with no bolt lift or extractor marks.

 

[TikkaSporter]

I have some dummy rounds made up with Norma brass and 300 gr Bergers and made a cut out on a piece to know exactly where the bullet base is sitting in the case. I decided on 2.880 base to ogive (approx 3.75 oal) wich puts the the bullet bearing surface to boatail junct just ahead of the case neck to shoulder junction. The bullet base is approx .040 ahead of the case shoulder to body junction. I figured going with this would leave me .040 off the lands to work with on tuning seating depth before getting into the powder column. I know it could end up outside of this but with every other Berger bullet I've tuned theres been a sweet spot between 5 and 20 thou off the lands.

So my question here is would you have it throated so it's touching lands at the 2.88 cbto I've settled on or have it throated + some from there, for ex + .010 would put me at touching lands at 2.890?

Of course the flip side to that is I would not have more than .030 or so to chase the lands as they erode before running out of mag length. If touching lands is left at 2.88 I have approx .040 room in the mag. I know a lot of this really hinges on the seating depth sweet spot and I'm sort of banking on it being about .020 off.

Oh also if some more ppl have some numbers like charge weight and there velocity to help me decide on improved or not I'd appreciate that too. I'm not looking to go wild but like the idea of hitting 2900fps with a 300gr Berger.

How many pieces of brass are you going to start with? That matters, because donuts should take some reloading cycles to form and throat erosion happens. I was planning to start with 200 pieces of Lapua branded brass plus the 25 pieces of Norma that I bought earlier. So with the 338 Norma AI, the first firing is for fire-forming. I don't expect to see donuts until after at least the second reloading cycle, so that's 450+ rounds down the barrel for me. With that in mind I made a last minute call to design the reamer with the bullet bearing surface right at the N-S junction (with the bullet touching the lands), figuring that by the time donuts might show, there should be 0.010" - 0.030" in throat erosion to allow for bullet jump. Kinda like leading a duck... trying to give myself a bit more mag length to work with to chase lands in the future.

I haven't even played with the 300 Hybrids yet, to include not measuring BTO in the as-cut chamber. Probably won't until the Lapua-brand brass arrives and has been fire-formed. I'm getting pretty satisfactory results with the 285 gr ELDM's. I've been told by more than one person that the sweet-spot for 300 gr Berger's in the 338 Norma AI is 2920 fps with RL33. From what I've seen with the 285's I'd say that velocity should be achievable.

 

[theallcineyes]

For hunting, it'd be an Elk gun most of the time.

Right now I'm working on consistency out to 1000 yards but I do want to reach out to 1500+ in the not too distant future.

For the 300NM MPR, it's sadly about a thousand miles away from me at present. I may not have use of it until after hunting season.

 

[284winner]

Debatable, in general... In my case, going from 338 Lapua to 338 Norma Ackley, most likely going to be longer barrel life and similar recoil verses 338 Lapua. With regards, to the 338 Norma verses the 338 Norma Ackley, there's not a huge gain in case capacity because the 338 Norma case does not have a lot of taper to remove with the Ackley version.




It's not mythical to me, having dealt with donuts and the associated pressure spikes, accuracy issues, inside reaming, throwing out expensive brass after only 5-firings, etc. There is no way to run a 338 Lapua at magazine length with 285 gr+ bullet weights and not seat the bearing surface of the bullet through the neck-shoulder junction (where donuts happen). The only sure way i know to avoid donut problems is to choose a cartridge/reamer/bullet combination that NEVER requires seating into/past the donut. If there's a better way, please enlighten me.

The question I have: Is going to the 338 Norma Ackley worth the hassle (custom dies, fire forming, probably buying the reamer) verses just going to a straight 338 Norma and dealing with the 20* shoulder, more brass growth, losing 50 - 100 fps verses my previous 338 Lapua?

Improved...Period.

 

[D.Stone]

Well I tried some VV N570 with 215 bergers in my norma improved yesterday. did a ladder/pressure test. ran out of charges at 3314 fps as I didn't think I would hit more than that charge without pressure. I thought I woulda hit 3300 with less powder. At 3314 the case web was .0005 bigger than the 3245 fps node, primer pockets were still tight, primers were rounded and bolt lift was butter. I didn't pursue the 3300+ area as the chrono showed a wide node at 3245 fps. I went and loaded up 4 rounds and shot them with an ES of 3. I sent the first 3 shots into 1.050"@400 off the bipod. I got excited on the fourth and shanked it to 1.8" total. In my defense it was 20 degrees and I didn't have gloves on. Waiting a minute or so between each shot my hands were numb by shot 4 LOL. The 3245 node had the same size case web as my 3100 fps h1000 load which was a cupcake load, primer pockets were still super tight, primers were rounded, bolt lift was butter. In my 15 lb rifle I could watch vapor trail go to the 400 yd target on some of the shots. spotting hits was an absolute breeze. N570 offered a much better fill ratio than h1000. My h1000 load absolutely hammered but the es was nowhere near the 570 load. I just finished my lightweight norma improved last night and will be putting a kahles k525i on it and commencing load development in a couple days. With a 215 berger at 3250 with single digit es, 1/4 moa accuracy off a bipod, barrel life that's alot longer than a 28 nosler, and Lapua brass that will hold up for a very long time this is the best long range elk combo in my opinion. View attachment 1083605

Are you doing anything special to clean your barrels? How often do you clean? Are you sticking to low round count strings of fire?

 

[Alex Wheeler]

We get far too caught up in numbers. A little bc or velocity advantage just is not going to show up in a hunting situation. The #1 issue guys have with long range hunting is bullet performance. A few inches of wind drift or drop is nothing and I would bet most dont spend enough time on their hunting rifle to truly learn the wind drift of the cartridge they are shooting anyhow. When it comes to elk a 338 is going to do a better job than a 30 all else being equal. If long range elk is the plan, Id always take a 338 over a 30 unless the recoil will effect you in a lighter rifle. Thats the only reason Id go smaller, recoil. In a heavy gun with a brake, a 338 Norma improved pushing 250s over 3000 fps would be awesome for elk. Keep in mind elk are tough and the harder you push a bullet the more explosive it gets. I have shot them with 215s at 3100 fps and that worked well, but much over that your asking for trouble if you have to shoot one close up IMO.

 

[rpierce]

Are you doing anything special to clean your barrels? How often do you clean? Are you sticking to low round count strings of fire?

I clean w Boretech C4 Carbon Remover. No copper in the barrel and the carbon is removed as verified w a bore scope. I clean every 30-50 rounds. One shot per minute and let it cool completely after 3-5 shots. Ive since found a load that absolutely hammers with the 230 berger and n570. Very mild load at 2930. Very low es and shoots in the .1s. Im really looking forward to trying the new 230 gr A Tip in a month or so. The aluminum tipped bullets Ive used in the past have been devastating on game. Alex is correct on the 338. However 90% of the rifles I build are lightweight with carbon barrels. Under 8 lbs without optics. A 338 would hop around too much in that setup. My lightweight rifle that's 10.0 lbs w optics allows me to spot hits at 400 off a bipod with the scope at 25x and a 215 @ 3200 fps. That's not gonna happen in a 338. I am building a slightly heavier setup that will be about 15lbs w optics. However that will be a folding 37xc and will be my serious long range hunting/plinking setup. Surgeon action, folding xlr chassis, proof carbon barrel and my magnum 5 port brake. Brake alone weighs 1 lb. I had thought about doing a 338 for fun but decided to skip it and go straight to 375. Building an identical one for a buddy.