338 Norma or 338 Norma Ackley?

[TikkaSporter]

Seriously considering re-barreling my burnt out 338 Lapua to either a 338 Norma magnum or a 338 Norma Improved. I prefer to magazine feed with this rifle and after fighting donuts with the current 338 lapua chambering, going to something where I conceivably wouldn't have to seat the heavies into the neck-shoulder junction sounds like the best way to go. Is this realistic with the 300gr Hybrids and the 285 ELD-M's? My max magazine internal length is 3.750"

Don't expect to gain performance over the 338 Lapua with the 338 Norma Improved, but hoping to maintain similar velocities without pushing too hard. Is that a realistic expectation? Also hoping to minimize case growth & trimming with the improved version. Obviously this complicates die acquisition, thinking custom dies, probably from Whidden...

Is it worth it going to 338 Norma Ackley?

 

[Bart B.]

Ackley versions of cartridges usually get up to 25% less barrel life. With their heavier recoil, they're harder to shoot as accurate.

I've no idea where this decades-old mythical standard for bullet seating that puts the bullet heel even with the case neck-shoulder juncture came from. Probably the same person who touched a slot machine display's four corners and center in the same pattern every time to increase their odds of jackpotting thousands.

Seat bullets just deep enough to allow reliable loading from the magazine and easy ejecting.

 

[TikkaSporter]

Ackley versions of cartridges usually get up to 25% less barrel life. With their heavier recoil, they're harder to shoot as accurate.

Debatable, in general... In my case, going from 338 Lapua to 338 Norma Ackley, most likely going to be longer barrel life and similar recoil verses 338 Lapua. With regards, to the 338 Norma verses the 338 Norma Ackley, there's not a huge gain in case capacity because the 338 Norma case does not have a lot of taper to remove with the Ackley version.

I've no idea where this decades-old mythical standard for bullet seating that puts the bullet heel even with the case neck-shoulder juncture came from. Probably the same person who touched a slot machine display's four corners and center in the same pattern every time to increase their odds of jackpotting thousands.

It's not mythical to me, having dealt with donuts and the associated pressure spikes, accuracy issues, inside reaming, throwing out expensive brass after only 5-firings, etc. There is no way to run a 338 Lapua at magazine length with 285 gr+ bullet weights and not seat the bearing surface of the bullet through the neck-shoulder junction (where donuts happen). The only sure way i know to avoid donut problems is to choose a cartridge/reamer/bullet combination that NEVER requires seating into/past the donut. If there's a better way, please enlighten me.

The question I have: Is going to the 338 Norma Ackley worth the hassle (custom dies, fire forming, probably buying the reamer) verses just going to a straight 338 Norma and dealing with the 20* shoulder, more brass growth, losing 50 - 100 fps verses my previous 338 Lapua?

 

[boltfluter]

Personally I would go improved. I have a friend that has one and it's a shooter. Little less bolt thrust, less trimming, and he shoots the 300 gr at mag length. Feeds fine. Now that Lapua is making brass this is a win win in my book. Whidden dies are well worth the investment. Great choice on your part. Have fun.

Paul

 

[Bart B.]

It's not mythical to me, having dealt with donuts and the associated pressure spikes, accuracy issues, inside reaming, throwing out expensive brass after only 5-firings, etc.

Then you agree with me. At least that's how I interpret your comment.

There are too many bad things that happen when the bullet heel is at or behind the neck-shoulder juncture.

 

[Drop Port]

Seriously considering re-barreling my burnt out 338 Lapua to either a 338 Norma magnum or a 338 Norma Improved. I prefer to magazine feed with this rifle and after fighting donuts with the current 338 lapua chambering, going to something where I conceivably wouldn't have to seat the heavies into the neck-shoulder junction sounds like the best way to go. Is this realistic with the 300gr Hybrids and the 285 ELD-M's? My max magazine internal length is 3.750"

Don't expect to gain performance over the 338 Lapua with the 338 Norma Improved, but hoping to maintain similar velocities without pushing too hard. Is that a realistic expectation? Also hoping to minimize case growth & trimming with the improved version. Obviously this complicates die acquisition, thinking custom dies, probably from Whidden...

Is it worth it going to 338 Norma Ackley?

Depending on your Lapua OAL you might be surprised at how little difference there often is between the 338 Norma and Lapua. If you give your old data OAL and FPS and Barrel length I could give you my 2 cents after having run several Norma's and about ready to re barrel another.

 

[fredo]

Given the magazine length constraint, a 338Norma AI makes good sense...

Same logic for doing a 243AI over a (longer) 6mm Rem, from a short action. That being, the shorter case allows for a heavy (long) to be seated further out, thereby increasing useable case capacity AND negating any 'donut' interference issues...

Where as, in order to stay < OAL magazine limitations, the longer case needs the same bullet seated, deeper. Which, in turn, puts the bullet in contact with a potential 'donut', and occupies case volume that would otherwise be used for powder...

Given an OAL constraint to insure magazine feeding, It's not hard to see how a 'smaller' case can hang with a larger one.

Naturally that argument is moot, if both cases are run at their 'ideal' OAL. In that regard, the bigger case always wins, by default of more 'boiler room'...

Beyond that, sounds like it'd be a cool project! Have fun!!!

 

[TikkaSporter]

Then you agree with me. At least that's how I interpret your comment.

There are too many bad things that happen when the bullet heel is at or behind the neck-shoulder juncture.

Yes, I guess I do agree with you then. I thought you meant it was a mythical standard that the bullet needed to be seated in-front of the N-S junction.

I will say that if I start with the bearing surface right at the N-S junction with a freshly cut chamber and new brass, most likely by the time a donut has had a chance to form, the throat will have eroded enough to seat the bullet ahead of it... This is just my thought process in looking at reamer prints and measuring my current bullets from the start of the boat tail to the tips and trying to figure out how much room for throat erosion there is to work with, given my magazine C.O.A.L.:

SAKO M995 TRG-s Internal Magazine Length: 3.760” = use 3.750” max COAL

• 300 gr Berger Hybrid boat tail Bearing Surface-to-tip measurement: 1.557”
  • Ackley Reamer = 2.1449” boltface to N/S junction
  • 338 Norma Reamer = 2.1489” boltface to N/S junction
  • ~3.702” - 3.706” COAL seated above the N/S junction
  • Approximately 0.045” to work with for throat erosion

 

[TikkaSporter]

Depending on your Lapua OAL you might be surprised at how little difference there often is between the 338 Norma and Lapua. If you give your old data OAL and FPS and Barrel length I could give you my 2 cents after having run several Norma's and about ready to re barrel another.

I'll have to look up my exact load data when I get home from the weekend... Off-the-cuff:

- 27" Bartlein barrel. 1:10 twist. 5R rifling.
- 300gr Berger Hybrid, Lapua brand brass, 91.5gr H1000, 2860 fps, can't remember OAL
- 285gr Hornady ELD-M, RWS brand brass, 91.0gr H1000? (need to verify), 2875 fps, can't remember OAL

 

[Sniper338]

You may want to check ouy doing a 300 Norma or 300 Norma AI... New heavy bulleys are coming out.. More Velocity, and ballistics are the same to slightly better than a 338 lapua.

 

[TikkaSporter]

You may want to check ouy doing a 300 Norma or 300 Norma AI... New heavy bulleys are coming out.. More Velocity, and ballistics are the same to slightly better than a 338 lapua.

and a shorter barrel life... I already have some cool-aid in the 30-cal flavor, but you are correct new bullets are changing the game.

 

[onelastshot]

If you're concerned with case growth and trimming, Ackly is definitely the way to go. I've got three rifles chambered with Ackley cartridges. The reason is threefold first, is to minimize case growth and trimming which the 40 degree shoulder does. Second, the 40 degree shoulder will give you anywhere from three percent to a 10 percent increase in case volume which results in higher velocities. Last but not least, the development of Ackley cartridges are easy to form. You can load standard brass in a Ackley chamber and shoot it with excellent accuracy. There are no special steps you have to take to form brass. Shoot the cartridges in an Ackly chamber and the end result is fully formed brass.

 

[TikkaSporter]

Depending on your Lapua OAL you might be surprised at how little difference there often is between the 338 Norma and Lapua. If you give your old data OAL and FPS and Barrel length I could give you my 2 cents after having run several Norma's and about ready to re barrel another.

27" Bartlein barrel. 1:10 twist. 5R rifling.
- 300gr Berger Hybrid, Lapua brand brass, 91.5gr H1000, 2860 fps, 3.715" OAL
- 285gr Hornady ELD-M, RWS brand brass, 91.0gr H1000? (need to verify), 2875 fps, 3.636" OAL

 

[TikkaSporter]

If you're concerned with case growth and trimming, Ackly is definitely the way to go. I've got three rifles chambered with Ackley cartridges. The reason is threefold first, is to minimize case growth and trimming which the 40 degree shoulder does. Second, the 40 degree shoulder will give you anywhere from three percent to a 10 percent increase in case volume which results in higher velocities. Last but not least, the development of Ackley cartridges are easy to form. You can load standard brass in a Ackley chamber and shoot it with excellent accuracy. There are no special steps you have to take to form brass. Shoot the cartridges in an Ackly chamber and the end result is fully formed brass.

Case growth is a concern for me, not just with regards to trimming necks, but IMO case growth can eventually lead to case-head-seperation and/or donuts at the neck-shoulder junction... I know there's a lot more to it than that, so may be the converse statement has merit? Reducing case growth may reduce the likelihood (or frequency) of donut and/or case head separation development?

 

[Ledd Slinger]

Ackley versions of cartridges usually get up to 25% less barrel life. With their heavier recoil, they're harder to shoot as accurate.

I've no idea where this decades-old mythical standard for bullet seating that puts the bullet heel even with the case neck-shoulder juncture came from. Probably the same person who touched a slot machine display's four corners and center in the same pattern every time to increase their odds of jackpotting thousands.

Seat bullets just deep enough to allow reliable loading from the magazine and easy ejecting.

A good brake makes most large magnums fairly easy to shoot. Adding weight with a heavier barrel and stock also helps to tame the recoil.

Improved versions of case designs have the "ability" to run at higher speeds, but do not "have" to run at higher velocities if a person does not wish. As others have already said, the most significant advantage of improved cases is stunting the growth of brass. When brass stretch is kept to a minimum, donut growth is much less of a concern and cases maintain more consistent lengths after firing.

Seating the bullet farther out is no 'myth' either . It allows for greater case fill percentages. It's been proven that cases exhibit more 'consistent accuracy' performance when high levels of case fill are utilized without compressing the load. It also allows for less friction and neck scoring on the bearing surface of the bullet as it leaves the case. Again, this makes rounds more consistent with accuracy. Of course speeds can also be increased with the greater internal case capacity to expand the range where a person can search for an accuracy node.

Lot more to the improved shoulder designs and seating depth arrangements than just 'getting more speed'

 

[TikkaSporter]

So I ordered 25 pieces of Norma brand 338 Norma Brass on the Bullets.com sale to play around with, make dummy rounds, etc. The plan has been to run the new Lapua brand brass, but at the bullets.com sale price I'm now kicking myself in the @$$ for not buying more Norma brass. Any way, here are some pictures of a 338 Norma dummy round with a 285 gr ELD-M seated with the bearing surface safely ahead of the N-S junction in the Norma brass (also shown is a 338 Lapua mag case for comparison on where the same bullet sits seated in the neck at the same COAL):





This is how the 338 Norma round fits in my magazine seated with the bearing surface ahead of the N-S junction:





Room left for throat erosion and chasing lands ^^^ Approximately 0.120"

 

[Ledd Slinger]

So I ordered 25 pieces of Norma brand 338 Norma Brass on the Bullets.com sale to play around with, make dummy rounds, etc. The plan has been to run the new Lapua brand brass, but at the bullets.com sale price I'm now kicking myself in the @$$ for not buying more Norma brass. Any way, here are some pictures of a 338 Norma dummy round with a 285 gr ELD-M seated with the bearing surface safely ahead of the N-S junction in the Norma brass (also shown is a 338 Lapua mag case for comparison on where the same bullet sits seated in the neck at the same COAL):

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View attachment 1039505

This is how the 338 Norma round fits in my magazine seated with the bearing surface ahead of the N-S junction:

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Room left for throat erosion and chasing lands ^^^ Approximately 0.120"

Are you using the reamer print in the photo with the .225" freebore? Is that going to be enough to seat the bullet bearing surface out beyond the donut area? Just curious.

 

[TikkaSporter]

On an interesting side note, figuring out how to seat a bullet in the 338 Norma brass without a 338 Norma seating die was a fun exercise. First thought was to just run it through my 338 Lapua seating die (Redding Competition Seater). That was a 'no-go'... Not enough taper in the 338 Norma case for it go very far into the sliding sleeve of the 338 Lapua die before binding up. Hmmmm, time to disassemble...

I just set the sliding sleeve aside and reassembled the seating die, minus the seating stem which is held in place by the sliding sleeve. Slid the seating stem onto the top of the bullet that I wanted to seat, set the bullet with seating stem atop it into a piece of brass, aligning the best I could, put it all in the shell holder, raised the ram, and adjusted the micrometer as needed. It worked great. For kicks, I measured concentricity on the two dummy rounds seated this way. Runout on the 285 gr ELD-M was 0.002" and 0.001" on the 300 gr Hybrid.

 

[TikkaSporter]

Are you using the reamer print in the photo with the .225" freebore? Is that going to be enough to seat the bullet bearing surface out beyond the donut area? Just curious.

That's the reamer print that JGS had on file and emailed me when I called them. I haven't quite figured out the freebore part of this yet. Now that I have some dummy rounds put together I need to give them a call back and get it figured out. Also thinking about throwing in an extra 0.001" of neck clearance to ensure that a no-turn neck will work with the new Lapua brass (getting the impression that Lapua's necks may be slightly thicker).

 

[Ledd Slinger]

That's the reamer print that JGS had on file and emailed me when I called them. I haven't quite figured out the freebore part of this yet. Now that I have some dummy rounds put together I need to give them a call back and get it figured out. Also thinking about throwing in an extra 0.001" of neck clearance to ensure that a no-turn neck will work with the new Lapua brass (getting the impression that Lapua's necks may be slightly thicker).

Heard word from a Lapua rep that the intital test cases have neck walls that are right around .0145" to .015". That would give you roughly a .368 loaded round.