300 yd...8tw/105's or 14tw 68 gr
- Thread starter longbow
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JEFFPPC
Gold $$ Contributor
Easy question, 8t 105. Now, a smart guy looks at the forcast and takes both guns along. Assess the conditions and pick one. If its a true dead condition PPC, otherwise 8t 105. Note my screen name, I shoot a lot of matches that include 300yds. So why do I often shoot the PPC, just love beating the bigger cartridges with the 10.5 lb. PPC., drives them nuts.
Cory porter
Silver $$ Contributor
I built a 8tw for 105s and 12tw for 80s In 6br. I prefer my 12tw for 300yds and in.
I'm pretty sure that the 6PPC shooting 65-68gr bullets holds every 300-yard benchrest group/agg record. Google "NBRSA records" and "IBS records" if you want to check.
As for "conditions", if you pull the trigger at the wrong time it doesn't matter what you're shooting.
how about an 88-90 in a x twist if 300 is the limit. bart is shooting lite in 600 and doing well. no need for a 105 at 300
JEFFPPC
Gold $$ Contributor
If your shooting in trigger pulling contest you are correct. Here in central Pa there have been very few days as such the past 4 or 5 summers. A typical match at several clubs I shoot at is 8 to 10 mph switching wind with 15 to 20 mph gusts. I love the PPC but on those days at 300 yds I will take a 106 with a .550 bc at 2990 every time in a gun that shoots back to back groups in the ones or less in a good condition for 3 shot groups. As far as records, every one shoots a PPC and most records have been shot in good conditions. Records often don't always translate to real life everyday matches. If the top 600 yd. shooters such as Bart, Sam Hall etc went after the 300 yd. records, I think there is an even chace with ballistically superior bullets and enhanced loading techniques we might see some new records. It would be interesting at least to see some top 600 yd shooters go after the IBS 300 yd records with heavy bullets.
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8-10 with 15 mph gusts are pretty much typical everywhere except Midland TX. and Raton N.M. at least east coast, south and midwest ranges
i hope bart does not mind me posting his stuff.
The 80 gr Dominator Boattail is a 7/9 double radius bullet with an .060 meplat. This bullet is the brain-child of Dean and Brett Stroud who were looking for something that would work with their 6MM Grinch (6.5 Grendal case blown out to a 40 degree shoulder) and would have more wind bucking capability then the standard 68gr bullets used in a 6PPC. The above combination with 12 Twist barrels have proven exceedingly accurate. Greg King drove this combination to win the Mississippi Valley Regionals defeating an entire field of 6PPCs. For the first time in nearly 20 years something other than a 6PPC Won a 100/200 yard benchrest match.
The 80 gr Dominator Boattail is a 7/9 double radius bullet with an .060 meplat. This bullet is the brain-child of Dean and Brett Stroud who were looking for something that would work with their 6MM Grinch (6.5 Grendal case blown out to a 40 degree shoulder) and would have more wind bucking capability then the standard 68gr bullets used in a 6PPC. The above combination with 12 Twist barrels have proven exceedingly accurate. Greg King drove this combination to win the Mississippi Valley Regionals defeating an entire field of 6PPCs. For the first time in nearly 20 years something other than a 6PPC Won a 100/200 yard benchrest match.
Dusty Stevens
Shiner
How many other times has it happened since then? That grinch sure does shoot good and the 12tw/80gr dominators is a killer combo for sure
JEFFPPC
Gold $$ Contributor
Point is, there can be more than one way to skin the cat. Plus, in the above mentioned win it was one rifle with the Grinch vs how many PPC. Hey, I love the PPC and have won quite a few matches that include 300 and 500 yds in them but I also realize it is not the do all end all round for those distances. First time I shot a match that included 500 yds several shooter told me I might as weell just go home, I was not competitive. I won that match and a year or 2 later shot the first 150 x 150 ever shot there, with a PPC. Did not make the PPC the best choice to shoot there at 500 yds all the time. Maybe it was a lucky day but I have done it since then also. But, in my mind the PPC certianly is not the best chioce for 300 yds nor 500 yds all the time.
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What's in Midland Tx????? Thatd be closest to me...
My club in Northern England and the UK BR Association ran some 300 yard BR matches earlier this year as an alternative to 100 whose attendances had dropped off. (We don't run any 200 yard matches - no suitable bench equipped covered firing point.) The range (Diggle) is a windy, tricky venue and the shooters with their 100 yard PPC guns and loads were disappointed. The outstanding performances came from a GB BR Team member with a 30BR barrel swapping it out for the PPC on his usual 100/200 yard HV rifle. He and his rifle with 115s beat both PPCs with 68gn class bullets and the 6BRs / Dashers with 105s.
The numbers were modest and with only a few fixtures (300 yards dropped after one season as attendances weren't any better than for the 100 yard events) it was far too small a sample to draw any conclusions. I did wonder myself how a good 6BR shooting a decent flat-base 88 or similar would perform, but nobody tried this AFAIK. (The old 88gn HBC-FB Bergers are very rare over here these days anyway.)
NBRSA Short range bench rest matches and nationals
If you run the numbers you'll find that a 30BR shooting 115s at 3000ft/sec has almost exactly the same wind deflection at 300 yards as a 6PPC shooting 68s at 3400.
Having shot the 6PPC, 6BR, and 30BR at 300 yards for both group and score competition, I have won with (and been beaten by) the 6PPC and 30BR much more often than the 6BR.
@Toby Bradshaw. Toby I'll happily believe what you say on the external ballistics numbers, but I'm increasingly of the opinion that real-life effects on the range often fail to conform to a simple BC-MV relationship.
Admittedly, I'm thinking more mid to long-range from an F-Class background and 300 yards will more likely produce results exactly in line with what the ballistics program says. At longer ranges, an increasing number of experienced 'Effers' are finding the 300WSM outperforms 'ballistically superior' 7mm cartridge / bullet combinations in tricky winds.
Very interesting that your real-life competition experience shows both 30BR and PPC as superior to the 6BR at this distance. I imagine most people without direct experience would naturally assume that although the differences would be small, the 6BR would have an edge - hence the OP's question in the first place of course.
It's one of the things I love about the AS Forum. There are frequently posts from people who both know their stuff and have actually walked the walk. It really does save one reinventing wheels (and for that matter risking making square or hexagonal models).
Admittedly, I'm thinking more mid to long-range from an F-Class background and 300 yards will more likely produce results exactly in line with what the ballistics program says. At longer ranges, an increasing number of experienced 'Effers' are finding the 300WSM outperforms 'ballistically superior' 7mm cartridge / bullet combinations in tricky winds.
Very interesting that your real-life competition experience shows both 30BR and PPC as superior to the 6BR at this distance. I imagine most people without direct experience would naturally assume that although the differences would be small, the 6BR would have an edge - hence the OP's question in the first place of course.
It's one of the things I love about the AS Forum. There are frequently posts from people who both know their stuff and have actually walked the walk. It really does save one reinventing wheels (and for that matter risking making square or hexagonal models).
@Toby Bradshaw. Toby I'll happily believe what you say on the external ballistics numbers, but I'm increasingly of the opinion that real-life effects on the range often fail to conform to a simple BC-MV relationship.
Admittedly, I'm thinking more mid to long-range from an F-Class background and 300 yards will more likely produce results exactly in line with what the ballistics program says. At longer ranges, an increasing number of experienced 'Effers' are finding the 300WSM outperforms 'ballistically superior' 7mm cartridge / bullet combinations in tricky winds.
Very interesting that your real-life competition experience shows both 30BR and PPC as superior to the 6BR at this distance. I imagine most people without direct experience would naturally assume that although the differences would be small, the 6BR would have an edge - hence the OP's question in the first place of course.
It's one of the things I love about the AS Forum. There are frequently posts from people who both know their stuff and have actually walked the walk. It really does save one reinventing wheels (and for that matter risking making square or hexagonal models).
Lauri, out of curiosity, why is the 300win mag punching above it's weight when compared to the 7mm ballistics in tricky winds? Bullet weight, velocity, or simply more 300's than 7mm's on the line? Feeling as you do about the AS forum, great, thought provoking discussions.
D
I honestly don't know @dbduff. I shoot a 284 Win at the longest ranges and use my 300SAUM with relatively light bullets at mid-range so am not in a position to give even subjective anecdotal views. There are some 'love the 300WSM' threads on the AS Forum though and an increasing number of F-Class competitors from the windier southern US states on semi-desert ranges claim that the cartridge shooting the older 210gn Bergers and with some 215 Hybrid users are regularly punching above their ballistics weight and humbling the theoretically superior sevens.
Go Figure as they say! No doubt, time will show whether the people saying this are right or are fooling themselves and others. I do seem to remember seeing a few times that the 300WSM was the cartridge to beat in 1,000 yard BR, but I'd wait to hear from one with more relevant experience than I have as an occasional 1K BR competitor. (I do plan to give my SAUM F Rifle an outing in both 600 and 1K BR in 2020 in the UK version of HG where we only fire 5-shot groups though. It's always illuminating to see how an F rifle and its usual load perform in this arena.)
Go Figure as they say! No doubt, time will show whether the people saying this are right or are fooling themselves and others. I do seem to remember seeing a few times that the 300WSM was the cartridge to beat in 1,000 yard BR, but I'd wait to hear from one with more relevant experience than I have as an occasional 1K BR competitor. (I do plan to give my SAUM F Rifle an outing in both 600 and 1K BR in 2020 in the UK version of HG where we only fire 5-shot groups though. It's always illuminating to see how an F rifle and its usual load perform in this arena.)
JEFFPPC
Gold $$ Contributor
Regarding your 2nd paragraph I am sure that is correct . However if your competing in IBS or NSBRA matches the vast majority of rifles will be 6 PPC or 30 Br. When I shot IBS very seldom did I see a 6BR except the first year I competed, I was usually the only shooter with one.I have observed over the years that many who only shoot short range benchrest which is primarily 100 and 200 yd matches seem to think only their rifles and calibers are very accurate. They neeed to venture out a bit.i know I only learned how to reload for maximum accuracy when I got involved in longer ranges. I am sure I have a lot left to learn but my eyes were opened up when I became involved in longer ranges.
If the range has good flag coverage and you can see your bullet holes to take advantage of sighters in the middle of your string of fire, in my experience the most accurate rifle is the best one to use because you can more precisely judge the effect of conditions (even subtle ones) on the bullet's path.
Recoil management also plays a role, especially if you are a runner. I find that even in a 13.5# rifle a 30BR is noticeably more difficult to shoot well than a 6PPC, even though I think that the 30BR is considerably easier to keep in tune.
Long-range BR rifles have higher weight limits and straight buttstocks, and are not shot for score on different bulls. Those things matter, too.
Recoil management also plays a role, especially if you are a runner. I find that even in a 13.5# rifle a 30BR is noticeably more difficult to shoot well than a 6PPC, even though I think that the 30BR is considerably easier to keep in tune.
Long-range BR rifles have higher weight limits and straight buttstocks, and are not shot for score on different bulls. Those things matter, too.
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