That is a very Big Claim... Barnes 110gr TAC-TX bullet is brutally effective. That would be hard to beat.
300 blackout shortbarrel question
- Thread starter P1ZombieKiller
- Start date
That is a very Big Claim... Barnes 110gr TAC-TX bullet is brutally effective. That would be hard to beat.
Totally normal trying to get your head around something new. I always start with comparing powder capacity. The 300BO case fits 18gr-20gr of powder for supersonic loads and only 8gr-10gr for subsonic heavy (bullet seated deep into case body). Whereas, 30BR has case capacity 33gr-36gr, which is almost twice the volume of 300BO.
Practical Application - the 300BO utilizes very faster burning powders, bordering on pistol power burn rates. The standard supersonic 125gr cartridge is still realizing significant velocity increases beyond 16" barrel length. As I stated earlier, I have an 8.5" barrel and a couple +16" barrels. If I were to do it again I wouldn't go shorter than 10", and honestly something like 12.5" for hunting.
Why larger cases don't work well as well in short barrel configurations is either Due to (1) slower burning powder not getting bullet up to speed, (2) significant volume of excessive powder being thrown into the suppressor (risk of secondary detonation in suppressor), and (3) even with a reduced powder charge utilizing faster burn rate the larger cartridge looses its efficiency as result of low case volume. I believe the efficiency of the 30BR case will be negated by it only being partially filled (50%-60%) to accommodate short barrel length.
At the end of the day there is only so much of any given powder that can be consumed in a set bore diameter and barrel length.
rebel
Gold $$ Contributor
It is a big claim - http://www.300blktalk.com/forum/vie...sid=6d7f81d8f7eaa638aff7bc72ca6b2532#p1000659
Long read, but worth it.
As a courtesy you should have provided a disclaimer "31 pages of posts"...War & Peace!!! I started skimming by page 3 and only focused on posts with key word "DELLET".
I don't see a hands down winner between the 150gr Gold Dot and 110gr TAC-TX. Clearly at longer distances (+150 yards) the heavier bullet has greater terminal effect. However, as Dellet pointed out that if the bullet passes through the animal then it doesn't absorb all of the Kinetic Energy, which appears to be common result from the various posters with kills. My experience with the Barnes 110 TAX-TX bullet is that it will dump most if not all of its energy. I have successfully recovered intact bullets from harvested hogs. One of the more recent posts (page 28) mentioned a comparison of deer hunting between him using the 150gr Gold Dot and his buddy using the 110gr TAC-TX on deer that the 110gr TAC-TX had considerably greater wound channel (tearing up the meat).
My results on hogs with the 110gr TAC-TX is devastating hydrostatic shock and damage...it looks like someone has pumped a jar of grape jelly in 4" circle around wound channel and there is very little blood. This has been consistent result over past 2 years of hog hunting. I have moved to head shots so that I don't ruin meat. The Barnes bullet is famous for leaving little to no blood trail...small entry wound, hydrostatic shock/trauma doesn't bleed so much, and possibility of no exit wound.
150gr Gold Dot - I can see the advantage for longer distances (+150 yards), less damage to meat from body shot, and a nice blood trail. I'll add them to the list.
Well, I did say long read
Just glad to see some more specific Blackout bullets being produced.
Agreed. It is good that there is a credible mid-weight bullet that is designed specifically for the 300BO platform. There have been times where a blood trail would have been handy...nothing sucks worse than blindly ambling through heavy thicket trying to find a lost hog. Too thick of cover at my place to navigate at night so using thermal to track isn't even an option.
P1ZombieKiller
Gold $$ Contributor
I am gaining more and more info... I have order a couple of boxes of the 150 Gold Black out bullets to try.
I will try them over 1680 and VV120.
I have another 700 bolt action with 16.5" 1:8 twist barrel.
That is a pretty light gun. Just really wanted to built a 12-14 twist for supersonic only.
I will try them over 1680 and VV120.
I have another 700 bolt action with 16.5" 1:8 twist barrel.
That is a pretty light gun. Just really wanted to built a 12-14 twist for supersonic only.
rebel
Gold $$ Contributor
Just a heads up, the BC # posted by Speer is .....very optimistic is a nice way of saying it. Dellet shot them at distance and came up with a much more realistic number. It is also in the link I posted. I'm at 22 gr. of 1680 at 2.2 COAL and cloverleafing at 100 yards with my CZ 527.
P1ZombieKiller
Gold $$ Contributor
how deep is the bullet into the neck at 2.20"?
I don't care much about the BC, it will be a 200 yrd max hunting bullet, with 90% of the shots between 100 and 125 yards.
I did plug it into the JBM calculator (at least I used the Speer 150 grn Gold dot.... but I bet it wasn't the 300 bo version) and the extra 200 ft pounds of energy will be good to have. I am partial to the 125 SST, but I would love to give this a whirl.
Hornady 125 SST at 2222 fps
100 - 1061 ft lb
200 - 811 ft lb
300 - 616 ft lb
Speer 150 gold dot at 2100 fps
100 - 1238 ft lb
200 - 1038 ft lb
300 - 866 ft lb
I don't care much about the BC, it will be a 200 yrd max hunting bullet, with 90% of the shots between 100 and 125 yards.
I did plug it into the JBM calculator (at least I used the Speer 150 grn Gold dot.... but I bet it wasn't the 300 bo version) and the extra 200 ft pounds of energy will be good to have. I am partial to the 125 SST, but I would love to give this a whirl.
Hornady 125 SST at 2222 fps
100 - 1061 ft lb
200 - 811 ft lb
300 - 616 ft lb
Speer 150 gold dot at 2100 fps
100 - 1238 ft lb
200 - 1038 ft lb
300 - 866 ft lb
rebel
Gold $$ Contributor
Haven't measured that, eyeballed it though. The bullet takes up a good bit of the neck space. I drop the powder with a 4 inch drop tube so I would call the load lightly compressed since the GD has a concave base. I'll try and get a measurement up soon.
P1ZombieKiller
Gold $$ Contributor
No need. As long as it's more than half, that's all I care. I was debating on crimping or not.
dellet
Gold $$ Contributor
The Gold Dot is 1.040” long and data from Speer has it at 2.180”. It’s really not that much longer than the 125 SST, about .020”.
Bullet length is something to think about choosing your twist. A solid copper bullet will weigh about 80% of a jacketed, example the 110 Blacktip is 1.175” and the 115 Lehigh is 1.065”. So if you think you might want to shoot solids, error to the faster twist. Probably no slower than 1/13.
I ran the numbers to compare a 110 Barnes and the 150 GD. Because That’s kind of the bullet to beat for performance. Max velocities for both at 100 yards. Oso mentioned energy left on the table when a bullet passes through and it needs to be considered.
So here are some numbers to consider.
Barnes 110/ GD 150
MV 2450/2200
Energy 1475/1625
Vel@100 2150/1975
Energy 1150/1300
1000# energy @ yards, velocity
150y, 2025v / 210y, 1740v
Some things to ponder. The Barnes has full expansion at 1350 fps. That delivers 450 pounds of energy. With the MV of 2450, that would give a range of 440 yards. But will there be enough energy for reasonable penetration?
Left to right Fps 1650, 1450, 1350
Interestingly enough the Gold Dot with a MV of 2200 will also be about 1350 fps at 440 yards and retain 600 pounds of energy.
A pass through does not deliver all of the potential energy and there is no easy way to measure velocity on exit. If we look at the compared numbers above at 100 yards. The Barnes bullet arrives at 2150 fps with 1150 pound size of potential energy and it will dump it all because it will not likely exit.
The Gold Dot arrives at 1975 fps with 1300 pounds available. It’s most likely going to pass through. For it to dump 1150 pounds of energy, it needs to exit at less than 700 fps.
Hopefully that helps make some sense and helps make an informed decision. They are two different bullet designs. The Barnes actually was not designed for hunting, it’s a tactical bullet. Minimum penetration, maximum stopping powder. The Gold Dot gives maximum penetration, adequate stopping power.
The numbers are based on max velocity in a 16” barrel. In an 8” barrel velocity drops about 300 fps for both bullets.
Bullet length is something to think about choosing your twist. A solid copper bullet will weigh about 80% of a jacketed, example the 110 Blacktip is 1.175” and the 115 Lehigh is 1.065”. So if you think you might want to shoot solids, error to the faster twist. Probably no slower than 1/13.
I ran the numbers to compare a 110 Barnes and the 150 GD. Because That’s kind of the bullet to beat for performance. Max velocities for both at 100 yards. Oso mentioned energy left on the table when a bullet passes through and it needs to be considered.
So here are some numbers to consider.
Barnes 110/ GD 150
MV 2450/2200
Energy 1475/1625
Vel@100 2150/1975
Energy 1150/1300
1000# energy @ yards, velocity
150y, 2025v / 210y, 1740v
Some things to ponder. The Barnes has full expansion at 1350 fps. That delivers 450 pounds of energy. With the MV of 2450, that would give a range of 440 yards. But will there be enough energy for reasonable penetration?
Left to right Fps 1650, 1450, 1350
Interestingly enough the Gold Dot with a MV of 2200 will also be about 1350 fps at 440 yards and retain 600 pounds of energy.
A pass through does not deliver all of the potential energy and there is no easy way to measure velocity on exit. If we look at the compared numbers above at 100 yards. The Barnes bullet arrives at 2150 fps with 1150 pound size of potential energy and it will dump it all because it will not likely exit.
The Gold Dot arrives at 1975 fps with 1300 pounds available. It’s most likely going to pass through. For it to dump 1150 pounds of energy, it needs to exit at less than 700 fps.
Hopefully that helps make some sense and helps make an informed decision. They are two different bullet designs. The Barnes actually was not designed for hunting, it’s a tactical bullet. Minimum penetration, maximum stopping powder. The Gold Dot gives maximum penetration, adequate stopping power.
The numbers are based on max velocity in a 16” barrel. In an 8” barrel velocity drops about 300 fps for both bullets.
P1ZombieKiller
Gold $$ Contributor
Dellet - Thank you. As always nice logical presentation substantiated with meaningful data.
P1ZombieKiller - 300BO Shorty conundrum.
My experience with my 8.5" SBR is that the length sure is handy for walking & small spaces or just playing at the range, However, it gives up critical velocity if you're thinking 100-300 yard shooting or stationary shooting, such as out if a blind, or even using night vision gear. I have found for most hunting (mostly from blind or night) the longer barrel configuration 16" is better because you can have 14"-15" rail which gives more optionality for finding comfortable front rest position on window seal without having to hump the wall as you would with 8" rail. If your using full size optics (large magnification for target shooting) or night vision (other than $$$$ tiny unit) the longer forearm/rail is needed to help balance the rifle (hand on forearm) and use some form of rest (bipod, tripod, sticks, or bag).
There is something Zen about going Slow & Steady with a Bolt Gun!!! Go to the range and attempt to shoot 50 "best shot" is a full workout. Bring an AR15 and its like eating Chinese food because 10 minutes later your done and still hungry...
P1ZombieKiller - 300BO Shorty conundrum.
My experience with my 8.5" SBR is that the length sure is handy for walking & small spaces or just playing at the range, However, it gives up critical velocity if you're thinking 100-300 yard shooting or stationary shooting, such as out if a blind, or even using night vision gear. I have found for most hunting (mostly from blind or night) the longer barrel configuration 16" is better because you can have 14"-15" rail which gives more optionality for finding comfortable front rest position on window seal without having to hump the wall as you would with 8" rail. If your using full size optics (large magnification for target shooting) or night vision (other than $$$$ tiny unit) the longer forearm/rail is needed to help balance the rifle (hand on forearm) and use some form of rest (bipod, tripod, sticks, or bag).
There is something Zen about going Slow & Steady with a Bolt Gun!!! Go to the range and attempt to shoot 50 "best shot" is a full workout. Bring an AR15 and its like eating Chinese food because 10 minutes later your done and still hungry...
dellet
Gold $$ Contributor
Comparative stopping power of the two rounds at 400 yards would be about like 9MM/115 grain and 357 mag/146 grain at the muzzle. I still think its best at 200 yards and shorter.
Oso, will you please talk to my wife about that whole Zen thing. I think she can bust about 100 clays at 200 yards shooting subs with Handi rifle and a 3X scope, about as fast I shoot 20 rounds from an AR.
If she got a hold of anything with a magazine, I'd need to mount a motor drive on the progressive to keep her in ammo.
Oso, will you please talk to my wife about that whole Zen thing. I think she can bust about 100 clays at 200 yards shooting subs with Handi rifle and a 3X scope, about as fast I shoot 20 rounds from an AR.
If she got a hold of anything with a magazine, I'd need to mount a motor drive on the progressive to keep her in ammo.
Seems like the 300 Ham'R is the way to go for short barrel supersonic hunting.
The "300Ham'R" is a gimmick marketing ploy by Bill Wilson. The "300Ham'R" (ie 7.62x41mm) is a knock-off of the long standing cartridge 7.62x40mm. Bill had to add 1mm to the case so that he could claim a new miracle cartridge that he could then rename and get royalties. It is nothing more than a 300BO with a slightly longer neck which you are forced to seat the bullet deeper into case because... Drum Roll... at the end of the day the "300Ham'R" has same overall length restriction as the 300BO...both are limited to the internal length of a AR15 magazine (2.26"). As pointed out by critiques the marketing material for this cartridge is inaccurate and misleading with apples to oranges comparisons and totally gamed the data set using an 18" barrel and light bullets (110gr-125gr bullets).
Keep in mind that in an SBR barrel length you will not burn/consume all of the powder in a 300BO cartridge. This means there is no advantage (additional velocity) gained from the increased powder volume of a "300 Ham'R" case. In reality most of the additional powder volume is negated by the need to seat the bullet deeper into "300Ham'R" case in order for it to fit magazine length.
Practically speaking - If you go with the "300Ham'R" then you will not find ammo at the local stores, and online retailers will offer a limited selection of ammo for this caliber. By comparison there is plenty of options for 300BO at your local retailer, and dozens of companies make 300BO brass for reloading. Do yourself a favor and keep it simple... if you want to go dedicated supersonic and want to shoot the 150's then get a 1:14 - 1:12 twist barrel and stay with the 300BO.
The 300Ham'R is not going to last with only Wilson supporting/pushing the cartridge. They have a small following of shooters with deep pockets, which is enough to keep them in business but not enough to make a cartridge become widely accepted. If Remington periodically fails with their launches of new/revised cartridges then what's the chance of Wilson will knock out the 300BO and taking their ammo shelf space??? I expect more people to shift to the 350 Legend then the 300Ham'R.
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Comparative stopping power of the two rounds at 400 yards would be about like 9MM/115 grain and 357 mag/146 grain at the muzzle. I still think its best at 200 yards and shorter.
Oso, will you please talk to my wife about that whole Zen thing. I think she can bust about 100 clays at 200 yards shooting subs with Handi rifle and a 3X scope, about as fast I shoot 20 rounds from an AR.
If she got a hold of anything with a magazine, I'd need to mount a motor drive on the progressive to keep her in ammo.
I've got a brother who is lethal offhand, but won't take a quick snap shot. I have another brother who will bang out 3 shots before you have even clicked off safety. I have learned with the AR to use 10 round magazines at the range and load no more than 5 rounds in it, which forces your mind to shoot groups. Hand me a 30 rounder and now we are shooting for effect. I'll provide suppressing fire while you make a run for Whataburger.
P1ZombieKiller
Gold $$ Contributor
And if you are hit while carrying me back a double meat sweet and spicy burger.... I WILL SEND IN THE MARINES TO ENSURE I GET MY BURGER!!!!
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