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3 or 5 shot groups?

181backup said:
181backup said:
JamesnTN said:
181backup said:
I like five shot on developing loads and to confirm load. I have had three shot groups give untrue leads then run same load in fives and not be repeatable. Seems easy to get three in together but five don't seem to attract as well.

That's because you're not doing your part. If your three shots consistently are pinging 1's and 0's then if you do your part those other two will as well. If 3 shots shoot 1" then those other two won't make that group any smaller.

Also if you're not testing over wind flags how the heck will you ever know what your load development is doing? Not saying you don't just throwing that out there for those that don't use flags.
Same question for you how many groups do you shoot in a row just one.
So have you ever had a second load in developing that was not as good as the first


No I haven't I've tested other powders along the way but I always come back to my first set of testing.
 
Yea butch tell the owner of barts bullets he doesn't know what he's talkin about!
(And remember what happen last time you got into it with me) you know the step brothers thing!
 
JamesnTN said:
181backup said:
181backup said:
JamesnTN said:
181backup said:
I like five shot on developing loads and to confirm load. I have had three shot groups give untrue leads then run same load in fives and not be repeatable. Seems easy to get three in together but five don't seem to attract as well.

That's because you're not doing your part. If your three shots consistently are pinging 1's and 0's then if you do your part those other two will as well. If 3 shots shoot 1" then those other two won't make that group any smaller.

Also if you're not testing over wind flags how the heck will you ever know what your load development is doing? Not saying you don't just throwing that out there for those that don't use flags.
Same question for you how many groups do you shoot in a row just one.
So have you ever had a second load in developing that was not as good as the first


No I haven't I've tested other powders along the way but I always come back to my first set of testing.
Maybe those other powders were right but you just didn't do your part because the first and second shot of group two (powder two) is really your fourth and fifth shot
 
To answer about wind flags, I only shoot early morn or late eve when conditions are perfect. You can't do load development in bad conditions.
(This is gonna get good!)
 
Results of last weekends shoot in Birmingham, ask those guys how well my first choice of load development worked. I was one bullet from winning all four places in LG and HG for group agg and score.

I brought home 3 first place finishes the smallest group of the day and closest to the X





James Phillips
H
1.820
2.627
1.230
2.300
1.9943
Bo Wass
H
2.638
2.900
1.508
2.025
2.2678
Eddie Bowman
H
2.911
1.887
1.553
3.344
2.4238
Bill Griswold
H
2.186
3.034
2.569
2.540
2.5823
Richard Allen
H
4.449
3.984
2.254
1.432
3.0298
Merrell Windsor
H
4.247
2.549
3.302
3.867
3.4913
Jason Danley
H
4.350
3.727
3.520
3.392
3.7473

Eddie Bowman
L
2.171
3.030
2.317
1.708
2.3065
Bo Wass
L
1.998
2.382
1.783
3.209
2.3430
James Phillips
L
2.120
3.423
2.217
1.638
2.3495
Bill Griswold
L
1.680
4.834
2.228
3.700
3.1105
Merrell Windsor
L
3.220
2.850
4.999
2.013
3.2705
Lance Russian
L
4.844
1.809
4.161
3.361
3.5438
Richard Allen
L
2.584
3.519
6.680
2.386
3.7923



James Phillips
H
48
49
50
49
196
1
Bill Griswold
H
46
44
49
49
188
4
Richard Allen
H
47
35
48
50
180
3
Bo Wass
H
40
44
45
45
174
0
Merrell Windsor
H
48
38
42
45
173
2
Jason Danley
H
42
39
45
46
172
0
Eddie Bowman
H
39
46
28
43
156
1








James Phillips
L
50
48
49
50
197
5
Lance Russian
L
45
50
48
48
191
4
Bo Wass
L
49
45
49
46
189
5
Eddie Bowman
L
46
49
46
48
189
0
Bill Griswold
L
48
42
49
48
187
3
Merrell Windsor
L
48
47
45
46
186
3
Richard Allen
L
49
36
44
48
177
1
 
James you haven't even begun to control the varibles w that system. Your competing with a load that isnt shooting perfectly strait therefor when you don't win it will always be in back of your mind that it could have been the load and not you. Also please explain what you just posted is this at 100yds? is it a 5 by 5 for groups?
 
I didn't say you couldn't shoot and nice job but if you would do your part 100% of the time instead of 60% of the time it might be even better.
 
Lazer said:
James you haven't even begun to control the varibles w that system. Your competing with a load that isnt shooting perfectly strait therefor when you don't win it will always be in back of your mind that it could have been the load and not you. Also please explain what you just posted is this at 100yds? is it a 5 by 5 for groups?


Why don't you enlighten all us dummies just what exactly a proper load work up SHOULD entail....
 
I couldn't get the copy and paste to work correctly,

There are four groups of five shots and then the agg to the groups same with scores we shot at 525 yards IBS format and targets

Names listed in order are the way they placed.
 
butchlambert said:
I use 3 for load development and 5 to confirm what I found on my BR rifles. For my hunting rifles, I use 3 throughout.

Same here. I do a 3 shot group, if it looks good then another 3 shot to see if it was a fluke. Then a 5 shot to confirm that was not a fluke.

drover
 
James, how many shots or groups would you do for load development with a new rifle that you were going to compete with? Before you called it good enough?
 
Tony (who?) Boyer's book outlines his load development -- 3 powder charges, 5 seating depths, 3 shots per group = 45 shots. A couple of 5-shot groups to verify, and then on to the next barrel to be tested.

Even a 6PPC would be more than halfway through its useful competitive life if it really took 500 rounds to "develop a load." Sheesh!

And the idea of not load testing in conditions ...
 
JamesnTN said:
I couldn't get the copy and paste to work correctly,

There are four groups of five shots and then the agg to the groups same with scores we shot at 525 yards IBS format and targets

Names listed in order are the way they placed.
Is that around 3/8 moa?
 
55 shots to develop a load? Ha! Think about it. All varibles worked and controlled in 55 trigger pulls, come on let's get real.
 
Btw, my goal is the tightest groups possible for 20 to 30 shots in 5 shot groups at 100yds. Maybe that's where the confusion is with the difference in everyone's goals, whitch is back to my original statement.
 
Lazer said:
James, how many shots or groups would you do for load development with a new rifle that you were going to compete with? Before you called it good enough?

Well if its a common caliber say the 6 Dasher I'd begin with a load .5-.8 grains below what many consider max or near max which would be starting you at around 31.6 grains of Varget and work up from there in .2 grain increments. I'd seat my bullet just touching the lands. Once I found the load that worked I'd tweak it by seating depth by going + .010 and - .010 in .005 increments.
Once you established the two powder charge and seating depth. Then load up 10-12 rounds and shoot those into 3-4 3 shot groups at 2-3 different range sessions and this should really show you that your load is consistent.
I also like to do all my load development at or around 85* this gives me a good overall spread of 15* +/- in most competition shoots.

Seating depth varies to the rifle barrel as well. But most bullets will have a sweet spot for long range with a +/- .010 from touching the lands.

To know your load is working depends on you your setup and your expectancy of accuracy. I strive to shoot at the very best conditions of the day called the golden hour early in the morning at right before dark and I want my accuracy to be sub 1/2" at 300 yards and preferably I want it to be in the 1/4" range for testing 2-3 three shot groups.
 
181backup said:
JamesnTN said:
I couldn't get the copy and paste to work correctly,

There are four groups of five shots and then the agg to the groups same with scores we shot at 525 yards IBS format and targets

Names listed in order are the way they placed.
Is that around 3/8 moa?

My best agg for the day was 1.9943 for 20 rounds fired at 525 calculate out the MOA. What I'm trying to show you is the way I load develop works for me and I do win matches with my way. My way may not work for you or anyone else but it is how I do it and I don't mind sharing how I do my load developing.
 
James not saying your wrong, I believe we have different goals in accuracy/consistancy expectations, and that's were the confusion is.
Is that about .380 moa? If my calculations are correct.
 

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