2nd Broken Lapua Case for .223

[GunnyUSMC]

Yea, this another step in my learning process. My practice was to take a measurement of the headspace after my first firing and then bump the shoulder back .001-.002. Sounds like my case may not have fully expanded in the chamber with just one firing of new brass so my setback was still too much.

Am I understanding correctly?

 

[ELR LVR]

Take a paper clip and bend about 1/8" 90 degrees and file a point on it or use a mechanic pick. Put it down in the cases and rub that point up and down the inside of the case feeling for a groove where the case is thinning. Use a bore scope if you have one to look in them. Toss the ones with the groove in them. I'd be taking some measurements on fired and sized cases also

What he said
I smash the end flat so i have like a wider claw feeling the inside of the case just above the head
Works great
other than that
***Peterson Brass FTW***

 

[jwv2001]

Yea, this another step in my learning process. My practice was to take a measurement of the headspace after my first firing and then bump the shoulder back .001-.002. Sounds like my case may not have fully expanded in the chamber with just one firing of new brass so my setback was still too much.

Am I understanding correctly?

Gunny, Fire a round, eject the case. Then put the fired case back in the chamber and close the bolt. There will not be any resistance. The case is perfectly sized by firing in your chamber. Why would you "bump the shoulder" on a case that fits your chamber perfectly?
I'm amazed at the advice you've been given. Do you know the term obturation in regard to a cartridge? It's the ability of brass to expand on firing to seal the chamber and return to it's original size to facilitate extraction. This process over time, will at some point work harden the brass to the point that the case might be harder to chamber. At this point, it would be time to size the case and anneal the neck-shoulder junction. This is how I knew exactly where your case failed without seeing your pictures.
Don't always think that you are getting good info on these forums. Even study my info.

 

[joshb]

“It's the ability of brass to expand on firing to seal the chamber and return to it's original size to facilitate extraction”
Sorry buy this is absolutely false. If it were true, we wouldn’t need resizing dies.
Brass does expand, then shrink back some but not to “original size”.
Brass should be fired 2 or 3 times in your chamber to have a true fit. Then bump the shoulder back 2 thou.

 

[jwv2001]

Brass should be fired 2 or 3 times in your chamber to have a true fit. Then bump the shoulder back 2 thou.

Your own words verify what I'm saying. The OP bumped and annealed after every firing. Did you read that? You have to read the posts first before you make your posts. Then you also stated "Brass does expand, then shrink back some" Those are your words. In the post before yours I said, "at some point work harden the brass to the point that the case might be harder to chamber. At this point, it would be time to size the case and anneal the neck-shoulder junction. Did you read that post?
To me, I have to look at your all your posts suspiciously from now on.

 

[GunnyUSMC]

Thanks guys. One of the challenges was that i would prefer to not have to buy another dies to size just the necks. I believe the folllowing process will work using my existing bushing die (LE Wilson full length bushing die).

Sounds like a lot of work, and it is, but there is a lot of "rinse and repeat" here as well.

• Start with fresh brass (I am currently using Nosler Premium because Lapua is hard to find)
• Measure shoulder (document measurement)
• Load as normal
• Fire the brass (1st firing)
• Measure shoulder again (document measurement)
• Test fit the fired brass making sure there is no resistance
• Back out my FL sizing die by about ½ a turn from where it currently sits
• Resize a case and neck (at this point the shoulder should not be pushed back by the FL sizing die)
• Measure shoulder (document measurement, it should be longer than when brass was fresh)
• Test fit the fired and resized case
• If it chambers easily without bumping the shoulder, reload as normal
• Fire the brass (2nd firing)
• Measure shoulder again (document measurement)
• Test fit the fired brass making sure there is no resistance
• Resize a case and neck (at this point the shoulder should still not be pushed back by the FL sizing die)
• Measure Shoulder (document measurement, it should be longer than previous measurement)
• Test fit the fired brass making sure there is no resistance
• If the bolt starts to close too hard, adjust the die down slightly to just bump the shoulder 0.001” to 0.002”... process complete
• If the bolt shows no resistance... do a 3rd firing without pushing the shoulder back
• Resize the case and neck (at this point the shoulder should still not be pushed back by the FL sizing die)
• Measure shoulder (document measurement, it should be longer than when brass was previously)
• Test fit the fired and resized case
• If it chambers easily without bumping the shoulder, reload as normal
• Fire the brass (3rd firing)
• Measure shoulder (document measurement)
• Test fit brass for resistance.
• Resize body and neck. This time, adjust FL sizing die to be .001 greater than last measurement.
• At this point, i should have found the optimum setting for my FL sizing without overworking my brass

Thoughts?

 

[Sniperhandle]

That's good for a couple of shots but I've seen bolt lugs damaged from continual neck sizing. Using your bolt to resize brass (when it has expanded to the point there is no or negative headspace) is not a good idea. Lots of lube on bolt lugs you might get away with it but it isn't practical and no good for ammunition to be taken into the field for hunting.

I neck size new brass for the first couple of firings to fully expand it and then bump the shoulder about 0.001" each time after that.

You have seen bolt lugs damaged from neck sizing? Dude I have been neck sizing for over 30 years, I call BS here, Sorry. But please show me some proof of this.

Internet rumors get started because of nonsense like this. That's what happened to using Moly coated bullets, Some AC on SH said that moly created a black ring in the throat area, This was obviously a carbon ring, Not moly and the sheeple stopped moly coating, Other than people like me who have been getting the benefits of moly coated bullets for decades.

 

[M-61]

By "bumping" the shoulder, you are decreasing the headspace

Actually Increasing the headspace, not decreasing.

 

[jwv2001]

Thanks guys. One of the challenges was that i would prefer to not have to buy another dies to size just the necks. I believe the folllowing process will work using my existing bushing die (LE Wilson full length bushing die).

Gunny, You don't need to buy another set of dies. Before I was introduced to Lee collet dies, I just backed out the FL die to only size the neck. The collet die saves from having to crush the sizing button into the case and then pulling it through again. I feel that leads to split necks.

Sorry guys, I'm getting frustrated trying to explain concepts that amount "common sense" experience.

 

[joshb]

Actually Increasing the headspace, not decreasing.

M-61: Don’t waste your time. The guy is a Guffey, reincarnated.

 

[jwv2001]

M-61: Don’t waste your time. The guy is a Guffey, reincarnated.

Once again, another comment that doesn't help the original post. Suspicious Very suspicious

 

[Webster]

sorry... should have thought about that in the beginning



View attachment 1627805View attachment 1627806

What are you doing to the cases to make them so black? Is there a problem with your AMP. Properly annealed cases should never turn real dark. Are you annealing with traces of lube on them.

A quick and dirty check to see if the necks are way over annealed is to quezze the neck hard with your fingers or lightly with pliers and see if you can make the neck very slightly oval. Compare the stiffness to a case that you never annealed in the AMP.

 

[jwv2001]

Actually Increasing the headspace, not decreasing.

Of course, you're right in relation to the chamber. My thinking was that you would be decreasing the length of the case, causing slop that leads to separation.

 

[Steve Donlon]

Sorry guys, i did develop some loads that were a little hot so i slowed things down after the initial development.

Original load data. It is a little hot so i cooled it off
CFE223 - 25.5gr
Berger - 85.5
COAL - 2.525
average MV - 2920

Updated load data which i used for the recent 4 firings and when this separation occurred
CFE223 - 25gr
Berger - 85.5
COAL - 2.525
average MV - 2840

Seemed a little hot Gunny

 

[Webster]

Sorry guys, i did develop some loads that were a little hot so i slowed things down after the initial development.

Original load data. It is a little hot so i cooled it off
CFE223 - 25.5gr
Berger - 85.5
COAL - 2.525
average MV - 2920

Updated load data which i used for the recent 4 firings and when this separation occurred
CFE223 - 25gr
Berger - 85.5
COAL - 2.525
average MV - 2840

I cannot find any loading data for CFE223. The Hornady website gives all the loading data except the wt. of powder. They want you to subscribe to see the wt. charges. Looking at about 10 different powders in my Berger reloading manual 9 have under 23 gr. max. Your at 25.3??? The max fps in the manual is 100 fps less than you have. Where did you get your max. charge suggested from?

 

[358WCF]

The internet is forever until someone puts the data behind a paywall or the power goes out. Books really are forever unless there's a fire. For 90 gr Sierra HPBT the new Hodgdon annual shows 21gr @2391fps & 45.9K to 22.8 @2554 & 53.5K. Berger 82s are at 21.7 to 23.5. Both in WW brass.

I've never seen pressure cause a case separation. It's always been from oversizing or firing new brass that's too short in a max length chamber. Once the weak spot starts it doesn't go away & remains a weak spot.

 

[qldreloader]

You have seen bolt lugs damaged from neck sizing? Dude I have been neck sizing for over 30 years, I call BS here, Sorry. But please show me some proof of this.

Internet rumors get started because of nonsense like this. That's what happened to using Moly coated bullets, Some AC on SH said that moly created a black ring in the throat area, This was obviously a carbon ring, Not moly and the sheeple stopped moly coating, Other than people like me who have been getting the benefits of moly coated bullets for decades.

Wow. Red font. Cool.

 

[Sniperhandle]

Wow. Red font. Cool.

Is that all you got?

 

[qldreloader]

Yes mate. Nothing I say nor any photos I post will change your mind. You have already called me a liar so there is nowhere to go. I still neck size - never said it doesn't work just said I've seen damage when people keep doing it and don't lube lugs properly. I still use moly in some rifles. Have a great day.

 

[Sniperhandle]

Yes mate. Nothing I say nor any photos I post will change your mind. You have already called me a liar so there is nowhere to go. I still neck size - never said it doesn't work just said I've seen damage when people keep doing it and don't lube lugs properly. I still use moly in some rifles. Have a great day.

You have a good day as well.