2nd Broken Lapua Case for .223
- Thread starter GunnyUSMC
- Start date
Grit or carbon in that chamber or on cases effectively makes for negative headspace if insufficient clearance to start with. I should have chosen my words better.
searcher
Gold $$ Contributor
Seeing you have six firings on the cases, if you did push the shoulders back too much those first four or five times - that could have weakened the brass to where you run into these separations. Adjusting your die now would help if the damage were not already done. Since you are annealing with the AMP - and if you used it in the Aztec Mode, I doubt you over-annealed the brass - so I'd tend to initially dismiss that and go back to looking at headspace. I'd run the "paperclip" method of checking the inside of your remaining cases. If you feel that sharp inside ridge in your cases, I'd toss all of them and start over with new brass. When I'm first firing brass from a barrel I've never shot before, I never bump the shoulders at all. I do record the measurement of the longest half-dozen cases. After firing again, if none of the cases grow beyond that measurement for the longest prior cases, I use that measurement as from what to bump back with. If they are longer, I repeat the measure recording and fire again without having bumped - and so on. I have had case separations before on my 7 MM Rem. Mag once, after 12 firings on full-length sized Winchester brass. I don't blame the brass - as they were warm loads and that is beyond where I should have kept reloading them. The signs were surely there - I just didn't look hard enough for them. Likewise on some .223 brass when I was first learning reloading and didn't realize the cases were not fully blown out before bumping.
Jonnyofalltrades
Silver $$ Contributor
Every reciever and barrel deforms momentarily under the strain of firing. Some move a little, some move a lot.
Rear locking actions are particularly good at this.
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Odd, a separation at the neck could be a miss match of neck and sizing die, or something anneal as well. Curious, what's fired neck diameter vs sized neck diameter vs loaded? Measure just above the shoulder. Are you using bushing dies or a FL die?
When I picked up reloading 223 again back in '09 my first batch of brass was FC'09. 15 reloads and shot out of a gas gun, split necks was my failure mode. I don't anneal my brass (gas gun, I'm mostly happy if I find it after a match).
-Mac
Yes, when comparing to other cases from this batch, it looked like it was separating at the bottom of the annealed area.
I am using the AMP Annealer and i ran AZTEC in the AMP to determine the correct setting
interesting... never thought of that. i will look into it
I neck sized my 6.5CM on a previous occasion and found it interesting that my MV went up 20-30fps. I had great results but members of a forum (Snipers Hide i believe) warned me that the case can expand so much in the chamber that it will not come out. Because i did not want to mess up my barrel, i stopped.
I just started doing this again with my 6.5CM with 3rd firing of Lapua brass to give it another go.
What is the danger of neck sizing and what are the warning signs?
I havent done this with .223 though. I would need another die... ugggg
yes, bolt gun with a .223 Match chamber
Here is my load data. It is a little hot
CFE223 - 25.5gr
Berger - 85.5
COAL - 2.525
average MV - 2920
Again, 6th firing of Laupa Match Brass after annealing with the AMP annealer.
No pressure signs at all
At the time of the case separation, the group being shot was appx .5MOA at 300yds
As for cleaning, i do not clean my brass
CFE223 - 25.5gr
Berger - 85.5
COAL - 2.525
average MV - 2920
Again, 6th firing of Laupa Match Brass after annealing with the AMP annealer.
No pressure signs at all
At the time of the case separation, the group being shot was appx .5MOA at 300yds
As for cleaning, i do not clean my brass
I cannot comment on annealing since I have never done it. I reload for 10 different 223 Bolt rifles and F/L size each time. I always begin with virgin cases, same brand and lot, and dedicate them to a specific rifle.
The paper clip method for detecting incipient head separation is effective. Any time you see that faint line it should be a warning signal.
Unless you have defective brass which I doubt, almost all separations are cause by excessive case stretch. This is almost always due to oversizing the cases.
To prevent this, you need to allow new cases fire form to the rifle chamber without bumping the shoulder. You can F/L but at a zero bump. Often just sizing the radial dimension of the case is enough for several cycles which is what zero bump accomplishes.
Going forward, you can often go several cycles before you have to bump the shoulder. You should not need to bump it every time especially if you are annealing.
You should be monitoring case head space every reload cycle using a bump gauge and caliper. I like the single piece Whidden bump gauge since there are no inserts. The main goal you need to strive for is consistent measurements methods. Three things you can do to achieve that: 1. permanently mount the bump gauge on a caliper, 2. use a single piece caliber group specific bump gauge, 3. practice your technique to verify repeatable measurements. Without reliable measurements, you cannot monitor case head space
I think this is obvious, but I'll say it anyway. You need to stop and correct this problem. Even if it means scraping the existing cases and starting over. The risk to you and the rifle is not worth the price of cases.
Regarding your question on neck sizing. You can often go several cycles neck sizing but eventually you will have F/L to allow for smooth functionality and to prevent increase wear and stress on the bolt lugs. The problem is that this is often not revealed until the cases are chambering tightly. The chief problem with neck sizing is that it does not touch the radial dimension of the case which is often the sole culprit in producing difficult chambering. This is best avoided.
The paper clip method for detecting incipient head separation is effective. Any time you see that faint line it should be a warning signal.
Unless you have defective brass which I doubt, almost all separations are cause by excessive case stretch. This is almost always due to oversizing the cases.
To prevent this, you need to allow new cases fire form to the rifle chamber without bumping the shoulder. You can F/L but at a zero bump. Often just sizing the radial dimension of the case is enough for several cycles which is what zero bump accomplishes.
Going forward, you can often go several cycles before you have to bump the shoulder. You should not need to bump it every time especially if you are annealing.
You should be monitoring case head space every reload cycle using a bump gauge and caliper. I like the single piece Whidden bump gauge since there are no inserts. The main goal you need to strive for is consistent measurements methods. Three things you can do to achieve that: 1. permanently mount the bump gauge on a caliper, 2. use a single piece caliber group specific bump gauge, 3. practice your technique to verify repeatable measurements. Without reliable measurements, you cannot monitor case head space
I think this is obvious, but I'll say it anyway. You need to stop and correct this problem. Even if it means scraping the existing cases and starting over. The risk to you and the rifle is not worth the price of cases.
Regarding your question on neck sizing. You can often go several cycles neck sizing but eventually you will have F/L to allow for smooth functionality and to prevent increase wear and stress on the bolt lugs. The problem is that this is often not revealed until the cases are chambering tightly. The chief problem with neck sizing is that it does not touch the radial dimension of the case which is often the sole culprit in producing difficult chambering. This is best avoided.
I appreciate all the feedback and recommendations.
Bottom line for me is to develop a more disciplined and accurate measuring process. I agree that the most likely culprit is excessive case stretch. I thought I remediated that after my first experience but apparently not.
I do have a number of cases from this batch already loaded and some ready to load. I am going to scrap them and start with fresh brass.
I have had a hard time finding Lapua Match brass for the .223 lately so I am going with a batch of Norma premium brass. Norma appears to have a good reputation as well.
Bottom line for me is to develop a more disciplined and accurate measuring process. I agree that the most likely culprit is excessive case stretch. I thought I remediated that after my first experience but apparently not.
I do have a number of cases from this batch already loaded and some ready to load. I am going to scrap them and start with fresh brass.
I have had a hard time finding Lapua Match brass for the .223 lately so I am going with a batch of Norma premium brass. Norma appears to have a good reputation as well.
Just look at his reload data. I don't have data on this bullet but that charge weight seems very high for the weight bullet. Certainly, agree with your observation.
In his post #1 he stated he didn't use "over" pressure loads and I took that to mean that he was below max per published data for that bullet. Do you know what Berger states?
Sorry guys, i did develop some loads that were a little hot so i slowed things down after the initial development.
Original load data. It is a little hot so i cooled it off
CFE223 - 25.5gr
Berger - 85.5
COAL - 2.525
average MV - 2920
Updated load data which i used for the recent 4 firings and when this separation occurred
CFE223 - 25gr
Berger - 85.5
COAL - 2.525
average MV - 2840
Original load data. It is a little hot so i cooled it off
CFE223 - 25.5gr
Berger - 85.5
COAL - 2.525
average MV - 2920
Updated load data which i used for the recent 4 firings and when this separation occurred
CFE223 - 25gr
Berger - 85.5
COAL - 2.525
average MV - 2840
jelenko
Gold $$ Contributor
What barrel length?
For a 24" barrel, GRT shows max pressure just over 55k for the 25.5 gr load but with just 2766 fps. To get 2920, the pressure would have to be significantly higher in a 24" barrel.
Exactly.
Some have included the ‘bumping’ as a step in reloading. It is not. It is to fix an existing problem in a particular case.
I consider this the outgrowth of a total lack of knowledge as to what headspace is.
The more times you stretch the case the sooner it will fail. Then not having any idea they bumped the shoulder back plus the headspace that exists in a firearm you can reach a number which will lead to far more than a separated case.
Give the case a running start with set headspace and then bump a shoulder back to an uncertain number leads a ripped open chamber, and maybe a ripped open shooter.
It really requires an understanding of what happens when the tigger is pulled.
Excessive headspace is dangerous .
28" Bull Barrel
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