280 Imp. for F-Class

[spitfire_er]

I am finally starting my F-0pen rifle and have landed on the 30 degree improved version of the .280 Rem.

I was just curious is anyone has used the 280 or 280 Ackley in F-class. I know it's not a short fat case, but I have a long action, and I figure with the extra capacity over the .284, I can reach some of those faster speeds a little easier.

Any thoughts?

 

[Keith Glasscock]

Innovation comes from rejecting the status quo and trying new things. Even if nobody else has tried it, you might find something that works better than what we consider standard.

You might try the search function. I vaguely remember a conversation about tryign the 280AI in F-class from about a year or two ago.

Good luck

 

[Rtheurer]

Believe it or not the 284 Sheehane (sp?) can hang with or out do the 280 & 280AI. Amazing case for its size. I hope Tony will hop in here and give some wisdom.

Having a long action has no bearing on the F Class game as its all single load shooting. I can put a Wby Mag in a short action to shoot single shot. It has been done for years. The opposite is true for the 284 being in a long action. With those super long High BC bullets potruding out the front, its nice to have a Long action incase you want to pull a LOADED round out of the chamber. Plenty of room.
My Palma Rifle (308) is a long action, my 6.5X284 is a long action, and my Old Palma rifle (308) is a Long action.
Enough about the action.... That 280 Imp should make a good long range rifle. Just not as sexy as the new stuff. The major players in F/O may disagree because it may be tough or down right impossable to push that new 180 Hybrid at around 3000fps like the RSAUM which alot of them are shooting. This would leave you a little behind in balistics game. I like the 280 so i would not hesitate to try it. But then again I have my own reamer and dies already so its no brainer for me.

You F ers have some good advice?

RussT

 

[canderson]

I believe Russ hit the nail on the head. Some of the 284's I have been around had a couple of issues but, they have all been worked out. I would think the 280 would fit in the game very well. Most of the big boys are shooting the 7 short mags. I really do not want to go there right now.

 

[TonyR]

I think that a 280AI or 280 RCBS which is the same thing with a 35 degree shoulder can be every bit as good as a 284 Shehane with the 180 gr bullets. I have a barrel chambered for the 7X64 Brenneke, standard case, and it has given me 2900 fps with the 180 VLDs from a 31" Broughton 5C using less powder than it would take to get the same speed with the Shehane. I suspect that some of the difference is just the barrel but I think that the long skinny case may be more efficient with the long barrel and slow powders I like than the Shehane case. Vertical accuracy was comparable to the the Sehane with either barrel on the same rifle. The Brenneke is virtually identical to the 280 Rem case, just a little smaller in the diameters, but I have made Brenneke cases from 280 brass. I looked at this alternative because primer pockets do loosen up with the rebated case head of the 284 and I was able to get my hands on an ample supply of RWS Brenneke brass which is a class by itself. You might find some RWS 280 brass around or you could make it from 30-06 Lapua cases. I was able to use standard dies for the Brenneke. I just sent a dummy case to PT&G and told him I wanted a reamer that would give me a minimum resize with a particular F/L sizing die. They make reamers for most of the die makers so this worked perfectly. You could do the same with a 280 or any other caliber you might choose.

 

[johara1]

I think the 280 imp. is a very good choice, but i would set a reamer for the use of 30-06 Lapua brass....jim

 

[Rtheurer]

Thanks for that Rodger.
pretty good break down of the cartridges in the thread. Is that total H2O to the mouth?


RussT

 

[spitfire_er]

I think that a 280AI or 280 RCBS which is the same thing with a 35 degree shoulder can be every bit as good as a 284 Shehane with the 180 gr bullets. I have a barrel chambered for the 7X64 Brenneke, standard case, and it has given me 2900 fps with the 180 VLDs from a 31" Broughton 5C using less powder than it would take to get the same speed with the Shehane. I suspect that some of the difference is just the barrel but I think that the long skinny case may be more efficient with the long barrel and slow powders I like than the Shehane case. Vertical accuracy was comparable to the the Sehane with either barrel on the same rifle. The Brenneke is virtually identical to the 280 Rem case, just a little smaller in the diameters, but I have made Brenneke cases from 280 brass. I looked at this alternative because primer pockets do loosen up with the rebated case head of the 284 and I was able to get my hands on an ample supply of RWS Brenneke brass which is a class by itself. You might find some RWS 280 brass around or you could make it from 30-06 Lapua cases. I was able to use standard dies for the Brenneke. I just sent a dummy case to PT&G and told him I wanted a reamer that would give me a minimum resize with a particular F/L sizing die. They make reamers for most of the die makers so this worked perfectly. You could do the same with a 280 or any other caliber you might choose.

Thanks guys for the replys.

This is kinda what I was thinking. I am one to buck the trend, and I have a reamer for the .280 RCBS, which by the way is a 30 degree shoulder. I'm not sure what the 280 capacity is, but I also have a 6.5-280 RCBS, which has 73.0gr H20 capacity to the top of the mouth.

I will be running a 30" barrel, and I have some Norma .280 brass I was going to mess with, so it's the road I'm headed down.

 

[spitfire_er]

fixed my previous post....... ;D

 

[Zilla]

FWIW, David Bailey, captain of The Long Shots team, shot a .280 at the 2011 F-Class Nats.

 

[Laurie]

I think the 280 imp. is a very good choice, but i would set a reamer for the use of 30-06 Lapua brass....jim

There is a regular poster on the forum called Expiper who has done just that and is a fan of a slightly shortened neck .280AI. I'm surprised he hasn't entered this thread yet. He can quote a PT&G reamer print number that's designed for this role.

.280AI-'06 is one of my (many) future intended F Class projects (alongside 7-08 Rem at the other end of the 7mm case size spectrum for long-range shooting). The intended recipient is a Savage 12 F Class in an Eliseo tube-stock (waiting delivery of that) which is currently a very effective 6.5X55mm having been rebarrelled from the OEM 6.5-284 Norma which sadly didn't perform well.

I did consider .284, but they're so common now every second 'Effer' seems to use one, likewise the .284 Shehane which also has the disadvantage of needing expensive custom dies. 280AI loaded for a properly throated barrel is too long for the Savage 12 action, but for F Class type shooting that's not an issue as long as you can eject fired cases. On the rare occasions that you have to eject a live round, simply remove bolt with round attached. I already have to do that with my Barnard .308W in an Eliseo stock as the COALs with heavy bullets exceed the loading port length.

 

[spitfire_er]

I think the 280 imp. is a very good choice, but i would set a reamer for the use of 30-06 Lapua brass....jim

So, how would the chamber end up? Using the .30-06 brass, you would basically end up with a .280 chamber with the shorter .30-06 neck length? I know conventional wisdom says that a longer neck should yield less runout, but I know many bench shooters used the lands to straighten out the bullet parrallel to the bore axis with minimal neck tension on the bullet.

 

[Laurie]

So, how would the chamber end up? Using the .30-06 brass, you would basically end up with a .280 chamber with the shorter .30-06 neck length? I know conventional wisdom says that a longer neck should yield less runout, but I know many bench shooters used the lands to straighten out the bullet parrallel to the bore axis with minimal neck tension on the bullet.

Yes and Yes are the responses to your question / comment. The sole reason for a shorter neck chamber is that the use of '06 brass sees a slightly under length case and the objective is simply to match the chamber and case dimensions. Why use .30-06 brass? To get Lapua.

THE F Class cartridges at the minute are variations on the WSMs in 7mm. Necking the .300WSM down is very popular, although starting with the .270 version and necking it up has many adherents too. The former has a 0.298" nominal neck length before necking up; the latter 0.276" - both work very well despite relatively short neck lengths.

The Nosler manual's 280AI drawing gives the full-length case a 0.343" neck and I reckon that using a .30-06 case as the starting point reduces that to 0.312" assuming (doubtful) that the Lapua case starts off at maximum SAAMI 2.494" and didn't shrink a little with the fireforming to .280AI shape. Let's say they reduce it by a further 20 or 30 thou', we'd still have around 0.280" even on the worst assumption - marginally longer than 7mm/.270WSM which we know works superbly.

Expiper did send me a reamer print scan, but I've 'lost' it in my PC somewhere!

 

[spitfire_er]

That makes sense. I guess I know you were getting at the point of using Lapua brass, just didn't make it to my finger tips.

 

[Rtheurer]

That seems like some extra work when there is Norma 280 brass available. Or even the Nosler 280 and 280AI brass. After shooting for some time I have come to the conclusion not all Lapua brass is Great. ( my 6.5X284 for example) A little sorting with Winchester or Brand X will give me the exact same results as Lapua. I no longer obsess over Lapua brass, dont get me wrong I use it but im not going to die if I dont have it in a specific cartridge.
Im becoming a fan of Cheap easy to get Winchester brass that seems to last just as long as anything else and has been pretty darn good in consistency and quality as of late.
I have to ask myself sometimes....Can I shoot better scores or groups with Lapua brass? Is it worth the extra cost? sometimes yes sometimes no.
I have a hunting rifle in 280 AI, it uses 280 Norma brass. It was back when I worked with a benchrest guy ( and learned alot) that I built this gun and believed every rifle I had needed either Lapua, Norma, or RWS brass or it wasn't going to shoot. This Norma brass will most likely last for the life of the rifle since it gets used less than any of my match rifles. But if I drop or loose them along the way it kinda hurts. If I did it again it would not be norma brass in this rifle.
Not confronting here, just wanted to bring up there are other cost effective options. Isn't it great to have options?
RussT

 

[johara1]

The shorter neck is no big deal,Lapua brass is a big plus.Talk to David at PTG. about a reamer set it up for the 30-06 case length and the free bore for your bullet you plan to use. The 280 IMP. is a good option with 30-06 brass......jim

 

[spitfire_er]

I just wanted to do an update on this thread.

I did get my rifle built this past year and got a chance to go out twice and shoot it at 300 and 600. The first time out was not the best but I only dropped about 20 points out of 400.

My second time out towards the end of the season turned out much better. I dropped 4 points out of 400 so I feel it went fairly well.

First time out I used 180 sierras, then the second time out I kicked up my load, went to Mag primers, and the 180 Bergers. Long story short it worked well. I ended up just using a standard .280 RCBS reamer and use .280 Norma firefored brass.

I didn't get a chance to run it throught the chrony yet, but I'm thinking it's running around 2950 fps.

The rifle is a highly modified 1914 enfield which I built. Krieger 8 twist 28" 1.25 straight barrel. My big handi-cap with this rifle is I was using a 14X Nikon which tracks extremely well, but It's hard to make fine adjustments at 600 and even 300 with a 14 power standard reticle.

anyways, here a photo of the gun, my last 300 yard target.

 

[Rtheurer]

Great news. Looks like its turning out for you.

What powders did you end up using? I have a Rock Creek barrel on the way. ( since March) Maybe Ill have one also by spring.

RussT

 

[XTR]

I seem to recall that a 280 won F-open at the Nationals this yr, I know that Jeff Cochran was campaigning one last yr. It can certainly be competitive.

 

[wyoming .260]

Wow , a P-14 enfield. You are indeed a man how thinks outside the box. Glad to see it though. There is alot of these type guns that can be made into enjoyable shooters.