250gr A Tip in a 308

[davidjoe]

I dropped an average of 10 points a match and this target pic is representative. The best SD of 8.0 was good relative to my rifles and other guns today, but some of my calls, and a few of the times I didn’t move, took a big toll.

This was due in even parts a mixture of both bad wind calls, and also my strong curiosity of just how it would compare to what I’m used to when “shooting it like I would an open” gun with respect to wind sensitivity.

The weather app shows 7 MPH, at the end. I had some hope the load would better defeat that level of wind, but I found the 8 ring and held as far as the 9 ring left to bring it back on shot 20. That 9 ring hold was the furthest of the day and should have been utilized several times, that I did not. Today with an rsaum could have been shot just about all inside the 10 ring’s edges, or close to it.


Takeaways:

1) the first relay rounds were loaded 1/2 (correction: 1.0 full) grain higher than this picture and averaged 1,565 on target putting MV about 2,465 according to JBM. They produced both more X’s and flyers, (possibly barrel throat seasoning) and chambering wasn’t easy as I need to go back and realign those shallowest seated bullets, and so I switched.

2) The reduced charge load had an 8.0 and a 9.0 SD in two relays and average target V was 1,510, a huge difference, with POI being an 8 low from the prior X zero.

3) most of those shots could have scored a 10, and since they are numbered the mistakes pretty evident, but there is no open hold safety net.

4) I don’t really know how different the 200 folks’ holds were. I do know my milder round still crossed the target 40 FPS faster than the 200’s despite starting so much slower.

5) a .308 with 200’s piloted by a certain record holder beat all but 1 F-Open rifle, narrowly losing by one point, to a familiar actual pilot, and setting a 598/600 TR record at the club, at least - but that’s more of a story for the other thread about TR being behind Open or not. She thinks not, well, not really but she should.

6) in constant conditions 10’s and X’s would string but it could lull me into a false sense of the bullets beating the wind when in reality there was not the kind of margin that an rsaum gives, rather just good bullets and no real changes. Still, for being 5-600 FPS slower, it was sure learn-ably close enough, and I see plenty of reason to chase good outcomes from it.

Edit: by the way BR 4’s survived the low charge perfectly fine without excess pressure signs and CCI 41’s failed to fire in one round. Happily, even that reloaded shallow seated round came out intact - no rod. Also, the SD was larger with the 41’s. All rounds were with 4350.

 

[davidjoe]

Long drive back analyzed by counting what happened after every 9 was shot:

1) 6 times improved to a 10 or X (6 stand alone point drops and about 8 of two or more);

2) 6 times resulted in 9 out the opposite quadrant;

3) 5 times another 9 same quadrant;

4) 1 time a lower score same side;

5) 1 time lower score opposite side.

That’s the difference right there, with an rsaum for me it is far more rare to have consecutive drops.

With both calibers I typically originate a 9 after a close call on the other side, not most close calls, but most 9’s are from that overcompensation nudged by with a missed change. Maybe even at fairly similar frequencies. However the rsaum recovery to a 10 score is far more probable.

Part of high consecutive drops could be my unfamiliarity with the round, - but then again, I’ve always had this inkling that an Fclass shooter could excel on the spot, without needing to know what the load even is, assuming everything does work well, after interacting with the wind and unlimited sighters, like a good drivers’ skills would rise in any given race series.

 

[JayBeeYou]

David,
Any impressions of how hard, relative to the standard 200 grain loads the gun was to handle? And thank you for providing a great narrative of your trip down this rabbit hole.

 

[davidjoe]

David,
Any impressions of how hard, relative to the standard 200 grain loads the gun was to handle? And thank you for providing a great narrative of your trip down this rabbit hole.

I was contemplating related questions to that for about an hour of the drive, what would have been the outcome with 200’s, same shooter, me?

But firstly, recoil is a step up. I have shot just enough, barely, 200’s, 155’s and 175’s over the years to probably correctly identify which is which from recoil at regular load levels. The 155 to a very healthy 200 load is still probably less significant a difference than a 200 to 250 load, at least the 2,450+ speed 250. But, I didn’t find it problematic. I’ve seen guys use that same Phoenix bipod on huge case ELR guns, and it never torqued to the side in the slightest today.

The butt did burrow into the bag requiring quite a bit of wheel adjustment, and even using different portions of the angled stock in shot sets of six or seven rounds. and I for one lose points a fair percentage of the time that I make major movements to the bag or reposition a rifle that’s been inching it and me back. The 200 probably is less attractive to sling shooters than the 155 in parallel terms.

Barrel time is an issue. These things pick up speed like a limousine compared to my saums. There’s a lot of opportunity to pull the shot. Shooting .22’s helped my cognizance of follow through stillness.

At some distance, maybe 1,200 yards, these would pass 200’s in time to target, but they remain behind them 0 to 1,000, (even though going faster by 1,000) and especially 0 to 600, including zero to the muzzle.

So, I have actually shot a 199 with CM’s top end borrowed gun and 200’s at 1,000 - with him coaching the shots. I’m truly wracking my memory of the holds that mild day trying to ascertain whether this load doesn’t actually require unnoticeably similar wind calls. I was amazed at the efficiency of the 200 grain bullets that day and consistency of rifle.

There were some good points today in side talk about the relative benefits of A-Tips in 7mm when it is very windy, - thought being that the right shooter can win with them in the high wind but possibly not in the calm to mild, where “very good” could be the best outcome. Here, there’s a bigger conceptual difference to the Open comparison, 25% more weight to deal with. The 7 A-Tips don’t recoil any more than other options, like these do, and that might always affect accuracy, at least some; ;it’s never a benefit, we do know that.

I’m not a TR shooter, let alone a proven, good TR shooter. It’s tough to draw any conclusions from my outing, other than that most shots dropped were in the height of the 10. On one hand, I peeked at some excellent, top targets and saw higher SD’s, and not necessarily better vertical. 8.0 is maybe as good as any bullet shot today, so the .308 is capable of sending them consistently, and Hornady did its job.

On the other hand, if 80% of matches are mild enough that there is no gain, these might get score hammered by a smoother running combination, even if a TR wiz was shooting them. Now, not by the number I got hit with, because my calls were bad, but even 5 points due to a larger group would do in a leader. I’m reminded how sensitive to the wind TR ppl are.

For heavy bullets in general the calls have to be tricky enough on a given day for those not using them, that their point drops exceed the heavy bullet rifle’s inherent accuracy disadvantage of greater firing disruption. Shooting heavier bullets than your neighbor with equal weight rifles virtually guarantees less stability. The pendulum can favor heavies if it’s really blowing.

The really interesting proposition would be how these would do in a place like Avery, on a bad wind day like recent times, in the hands of a TR ace.

 

[coolbox]

How would you compare these with 200.20x in FTR? Considering points dropped.
7saum is probably ballistically the most superior, and might not be a fair comparison with a 308, in my view.

 

[davidjoe]

^ That moderate day we had yesterday, ... the best .308 score was (correction - NOT - a single point) behind the best open score, merely a few X’s, which I’m assuming was with his 300 magnum. Two fantastic 598/600 scores. I’m not sure if the 300 shot 200’s or not, but I’m 99% sure both shot tipped Bergers, 30 cal.,, which at most, were 15 grains apart, but could have both been 200H’s. The magnum’s extra effective BC and the gun’s extra weight, whatever the bullet was, only netted out one less nine.

It could very well be that the same 200’s won both divisions, I’m not certain. But clearly 200’s or very close that weight, were enough to win with nearly perfect scores, in those conditions.

That wind we had was enough to require good wind watching and calls on these bullets. I’d have been lucky to shoot 194’s with .308/200’s myself, so we are talking about a few points difference per match, not 10. While I can’t shoot anywhere near clean with 200’s, it could well be true at the same time that the best shooters would not have shot my gun very much differently than me, either. Some of those horizontal drops might not necessarily have been wind call related, but larger group results. Early on to try to say. (That test was done once with 250’s, scores tied, and means the gun is preventing the far better wind reading skills from rising, until better tuned).

Could I tune up and learn these bullets to be reasonably close to how I’d shoot lighter bullets in no to moderate wind, and catch a few points, net, when it blows, I do think so, based on low SD’s already being seen right off the bat, the first time with a new barrel, and unquestionably high BC. The points saved in wind theory is not much of a speculation at this date in time, after 190 A -Tips have finished so well in the wind for the few using them in open.

That’s actually my general strategy in open, since the Berger 195’s came out, but the swing is not nearly as extreme, there. These bullets can’t use anywhere near the same barrels or throats. I’m not as sure it will work here, and that’s on top of some doubt about whether it even works in Open, too.

The big surprise was that I had believed builds and let offs were slow enough yesterday that I hoped to see these bullets give me a warning 10 every time, and they didn’t. Then, I couldn’t just basically split the difference and reliably recover, like in Open. A double or triple drop was more frequent than a single 9.

 

[paulT]

Dave was match shot at 1000y also what was wind direction/s and conditions
Did you find any left to right or visa versa wind changes possibly created vertical at target.

 

[davidjoe]

Dave was match shot at 1000y also what was wind direction/s and conditions
Did you find any left to right or visa versa wind changes possibly created vertical at target.

60 shots for record all from 1,000. Hopefully the full pic comes through.

The Bayou Club has ranges on two properties. The parking and line of the Juliff 1,000 yard range starts behind the berm of its 300 yard range. Firing on all of its several ranges is in the direction of due north, as the public road is to the south. There is very significant property length behind the berm.

The dense air, low elevation 1,000 yard range is tree lined and flagged about each 200 yards.. It is 21 target frames wide with room to expand, but into Alvin’s pond domain.

My app for the nearest town of Manvel showed mild wind ranging from SSE to ESE ultimately at 7 mph or under by completion. I believe I did feel frontal breezes however and have wondered about small local wind variations before.

I typically drop more points to let-offs than builds. I lost more points by 3:1 to the right than left, low than high. The indicated wind direction, if I missed let-offs, would be consistent with with the direction of most of my point drops. (When the let off occurred, my shots were not pushed as much, so they hit lower, and into the direction the pressure had been coming from - at least two extremely wide rights).

The day was overcast. The lightweight flags didn’t rise match one. Flags moved, partially rising, and rarely waved, the other matches.

Block time matches started with infiltration, together three separate times.

 

[paulT]

60 shots for record all from 1,000. Hopefully the full pic comes through.

The Bayou Club has ranges on two properties. The parking and line of the Juliff 1,000 yard range starts behind the berm of its 300 yard range. Firing on all of its several ranges is in the direction of due north, as the public road is to the south. There is very significant property length behind the berm.

The dense air, low elevation 1,000 yard range is tree lined and flagged about each 200 yards.. It is 21 target frames wide with room to expand, but into Alvin’s pond domain.

My app for the nearest town of Manvel showed mild wind ranging from SSE to ESE ultimately at 7 mph or under by completion. I believe I did feel frontal breezes however and have wondered about small local wind variations before.

I typically drop more points to let-offs than builds. I lost more points by 3:1 to the right than left, low than high. The indicated wind direction, if I missed let-offs, would be consistent with with the direction of most of my point drops. (When the let off occurred, my shots were not pushed as much, so they hit lower, and into the direction the pressure had been coming from - at least two extremely wide rights).

The day was overcast. The lightweight flags didn’t rise match one. Flags moved, partially rising, and rarely waved, the other matches.

Block time matches started with infiltration, together three separate times.

Thanks David for your detailed reply.

 

[coolbox]

@davidjoe
For a COAL of ~3.4", can you share what 308win dies and seating stem did you use?

 

[davidjoe]

@davidjoe
For a COAL of ~3.4", can you share what 308win dies and seating stem did you use?

I don’t believe any .308 die would work. None of mine would. I have been seating these bullets with my .338 LM die, with the stem lowered close to the bottom of its range.

 

[coolbox]

I don’t believe any .308 die would work. None of mine would. I have been seating these bullets with my .338 LM die, with the stem lowered close to the bottom of its range.

Thank you!

 

[coolbox]

I don’t believe any .308 die would work. None of mine would. I have been seating these bullets with my .338 LM die, with the stem lowered close to the bottom of its range.

Just to update, I have tested a 300wm redding seating die, with a 308 sleeve (for best fit of 308 case), vld stem. This combo loads the 198 Flatlines out to over 3.4" coal for a 308win, about the same as in your case. The 308 sleeve is just about long enough to fit in the 300wm die.
I got some flatlines to test now. 8T barrel on thw way.

 

[284winner]

2350 fps is probably a more realistic velocity for a tuned load with a 250 gr bullet in a .308 Win case. The first question I would ask is what would you be trying to do with it and why do you think the 250 gr A-tip would be the optimal choice? As an exercise, you can run the numbers in a ballistic calculator such as JBM for heavy .308 bullets in tuned loads of of known velocity. For example, reasonable velocity estimates for tuned loads from a 30" barrel with the 200.20X, 215 Hybrid, and 230 Hybrid bullets over Varget in Palma grass are 2650, 2550, and 2450 fps, respectively. Using box BC G7 values of 0.328, 0.354, and 0.368, with atmospherics of 70 degrees F, 1000 ft elevation, 60% humidity, and 29.94" Hg, JBM wind drift estimates for a full-value 10 mph wind are:

600 yd
200.20X = 3.3 MOA
215 Hybrid =3.2 MOA
230 Hybrid = 3.3 MOA
250 A-Tip = 2.8 MOA

1000 yd
200.20X = 6.2 MOA
215 Hybrid = 6.0 MOA
230 Hybrid = 6.1 MOA
250 A-Tip = 5.1 MOA

Someone may claim to be able to obtain more velocity for one these bullets. Yes - that's certainly possible, but the velocities values given are reasonable values for tuned loads that have actually been used in F-TR competitions, and any increases in velocity aren't likely going to be huge.

So what does this exercise really tell you? My first take away is that neither the 215 or 230 Hybrids are going to be a huge advantage in wind deflection in a .308 Win F-TR rifle over the 200.20X bullet. First and foremost, I don't think the .308 Win case has sufficient boiler room to push those bullets at velocities that will take full advantage of their BCs. In addition, even the very modest gain in terms of decreased wind deflection exhibited by the 215 Hybrid over the 200.20X assumes they can be loaded and fired with equal precision. That may or may not be the case. I know a few F-TR shooters that tried the 215s and went back to the 200.20Xs due to vertical issues. Whether those issues were caused by recoil management (gun handling) problems with the heavier bullet, or arose from marginal stability at the relatively low velocity obtained from a .308 cartridge doesn't really matter. Dropped points are dropped points, so a slight increase in wind resistance may not always overcome the other problems that may arise when switching to a heavier bullet. I think it's pretty fair to state that 215+ gr bullets in the .308 Win are not for everyone.

Clearly there are important questions to answer before going down this path. Few people will already have a .308 set up optimally for the 250 A-tips. I'm guessing they would require somewhere in the neighborhood of a 9-twist barrel (certainly faster than a 10-twist) to achieve the full intrinsic BC. They also probably need something like a 0.300" freebore (or thereabouts), meaning a rifle set up to take advantage of their high BC would likely not be realistically usable with any other lighter bullet/powder combination. So such a setup would necessarily warrant a purpose-built barrel.

So we're talking about a custom barrel setup, and a new finishing reamer (or Uni-throater), and really no idea how it would actually shoot because that's pretty much uncharted territory. I'm not saying there isn't anyone that could get it to work, but I've recently been down the experimental uber-high BC bullet route, and I know from experience that it can turn into a real black hole. If you want to give the 250s a go in the .308, I think it'd be an awesome experiment to try and my hat's off to you. Just be aware at the start of what you might be getting into and make an informed decision of whether it's worth the effort.

Still very impressive Yes.

 

[davidjoe]

I'll share the most important detail about my recent exploits with uber-high BC bullets: they have uniformly been black holes...gaping, bottomless, empty pits...devoid of all life, or even a feeble flickering spark of happiness; once you have irreversibly crossed that event horizon, they inexorably draw you down, down, down, down...into utter oblivion. They can also have a similar effect on your wallet. Hence my reason for advising making an informed decision about trying a new bullet that also likely requires a dedicated barrel and chamber for optimal results. It's great when such an endeavor pans out, not so great if it doesn't.

I agree that with sufficient freebore, a 30"-32" barrel, and the right powder, 2400 fps is probably achievable with a 250 gr bullet in .308 Win. But it would likely be running in the 64K+ psi range as you noted, and the increase in recoil would be commensurate. It might work well for some, but given that I am not aware of more than possibly a single F-TR shooter that has ever successfully used the 230 Hybrids for any length of time in competition, I am more inclined to think a 250 gr bullet is asking a little too much from the .308 Win cartridge.

Ned, I’m headed to the range with two 8 twist .308’s.

It’s not my story to tell, but it’s a public match and no secret per se, and this is honestly the only way we advance. - A super heavy (195) in the biggest cartridge utilized for 7’s - by more than one person, blew up at nationals. Nothing unique about that as about 4-5 guys have lost one or more, except, add 10 points and that shooter wins the grand agg F-Open.

I totally get second guessing super heavies. Try this, on any inconsistent heavy. I am very eager myself to further explore it.

HBN powder, a drop or two of gun oil, and 100 heavy bullets. Put them in a clear plastic jug and by hand shake. This slurry seems to ease engraving dramatically, and probably seals up any imperfections in the throat area. It’s instantly on.



I was bugging Brian for 195’s for two years before they came out. Brian, to me, and everyone generally questioned and discouraged them in match use, but not for fragility. They are incredible. This works on them, too.

 

[davidjoe]

This HBN slurry is working well at 200 yards. I did not weigh these charges because I did not want to empty H1000 to fill with H4350.

It’s thrown 47 grain charges.



The gun set up is quality components, but is not TR typical and nothing exotic except that it is an 8 Twist.


At 100.




There are sister threads of mine about the same bullet in my Win Mags. In those, HBN is now going to be SOP to prevent blowups.

But in .308’s I will use it regardless, as I think it helps accuracy.

 

[Evan]

How does the recoil and torque feel? Something you have to manage or a non-issue?

 

[davidjoe]

How does the recoil and torque feel? Something you have to manage or a non-issue?

Good question, such a heavy bullet is definitely working against producing the smallest group. Jackie posted custom bullets for short range BR yesterday that weigh less than half of these.

I do feel the difference, and not just because this rifle is a couple pounds under the limit. These honestly probably are grouping a just a tick bigger than 200’s would in the gun, and it would take some wind and real distance to recover that, and gain on it. I don’t know whether that is a Betger / Hornady difference, or a 200 /250 difference.

Berger won’t give us the 245. It’s a unicorn bullet near as I can tell. It could be that if I ran 245’s in this rifle, they would also be a smidge bigger at 100/200. I know that 155’s at 100/200 are fantastic, but in truth I can’t remember shooting 30’s less than 155, and that is a real hole in my practical experience.

 

[4xforfun]

Good groups at 1000. But it is a 10 twist barrel and I had keyholes at 50 yards.

Am I reading this correctly? Keyholes at 50 but good groups at 1000??

 

[Evan]

Good question, such a heavy bullet is definitely working against producing the smallest group. Jackie posted custom bullets for short range BR yesterday that weigh less than half of these.

I do feel the difference, and not just because this rifle is a couple pounds under the limit. These honestly probably are grouping a just a tick bigger than 200’s would in the gun, and it would take some wind and real distance to recover that, and gain on it. I don’t know whether that is a Betger / Hornady difference, or a 200 /250 difference.

Berger won’t give us the 245. It’s a unicorn bullet near as I can tell. It could be that if I ran 245’s in this rifle, they would also be a smidge bigger at 100/200. I know that 155’s at 100/200 are fantastic, but in truth I can’t remember shooting 30’s less than 155, and that is a real hole in my practical experience.

Reading the hornady bullet bashing threads brought me back here. @davidjoe have you continued to play with this combo? Any updates? I off and on get an itch to build a 308, 30-284, or 30-6.5PRC to shoot heavies for 1000yd BR but can never get myself to pull the trigger, mostly due to bullet cost and recoil.