2500X / BnA trigger question

[cavedweller60]

If your strikes are consistent and all look like these pics I don’t think that is your problem. As others have said, you could Shave your spring length back a little if you think it may be striking too hard. What is your front rest set up? Any chance your getting some stock bounce? What stock and how does the bed look? As you said, there are allot of factors to look at….

It's a rotex stock and a SEB mini-x front rest with a PQP mechanical rear rest (I shoot at multiple ranges and like the easy rear rest height adjustment). I have tried both extremes and everything in between....a hard clamp on the front rest and loose enough to free recoil...doesn't seem to matter.

 

[BowChamp]

I'll pass on some advice that was given to me...don't do anything that can't be undone.

If you cut a spring, have replacements in hand before doing so. If you change the firing pin profile, have an extra or two in hand before doing so. Never hurts to have extra parts on hand.

I've taken four 2500X's apart and all had the dimple on the trigger hanger forward. The firing pin strike was very similar to yours.

If you lighten the firing pin spring enough, it's possible you will limit yourself to using certain brands of ammo. Nothing wrong with it, just may happen.
Where I have mine set it shoots Lapua and SK ammo very well, no misfires. With Eley I get more misfires than I like. I can add spring pressure and these Eley misfires go away.

Just some of my experience in my very short 22LR career, Hope it helps.

 

[cavedweller60]

I'll pass on some advice that was given to me...don't do anything that can't be undone.

If you cut a spring, have replacements in hand before doing so. If you change the firing pin profile, have an extra or two in hand before doing so. Never hurts to have extra parts on hand.

I've taken four 2500X's apart and all had the dimple on the trigger hanger forward. The firing pin strike was very similar to yours.

If you lighten the firing pin spring enough, it's possible you will limit yourself to using certain brands of ammo. Nothing wrong with it, just may happen.
Where I have mine set it shoots Lapua and SK ammo very well, no misfires. With Eley I get more misfires than I like. I can add spring pressure and these Eley misfires go away.

Just some of my experience in my very short 22LR career, Hope it helps.

Thank you sir, I appreciate your input. I have the same mindset, "...don't do anything that can't be undone.", that's why I was thinking of flipping the hanger to see if it did anything to help. If it didn't, it's easily reversible. I am going to order a couple springs and possibly play with that but, I'm hoping it will just start coming around.

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

I don't think I have a firing pin / ignition problem but, I do see a huge difference in the primer strikes I am getting compared to what I saw from another shooters casings. I am struggling to get consistency out of the rifle and I am exploring things that can cause erratic results but that, don't require anything extreme to fix / check. I can flip the hanger around and obviously, it isn't doing anything that can't be easily reversed.

I tried 3 lots of center x, two lots of Eley match and 1 lot of tenex and non of them give consistent repeatable results. In looking at the spent casings, the firing pin is hitting hard enough to make an apparent deformity to the rim of the spent casing. The center x is also showing a bulge in the center of the spent casing which I have never seen before on any of my rimfire guns.

Here are a couple pictures....

You can see the little bulge in the center and the difformity of the rim. Maybe this is completley normal but, I can say I sifted through the empty brass buckets looking at brass and I looked at a bunch of casings from the guy shooting next to me and I didn't see any other Lapua ammo with a similar bulge. Like I said, it might be completely normal. If I had seen it on one lot of CX I would wonder if it was an ammo issue but, it happened to 3 different lots.

I don't know if there is an issue, I am asking questions in an effort to try and find a path forward.



View attachment 1644832View attachment 1644833

What is puzzling if the picture is really showing what looks like a domed bulge in the center of the fired case. is this the concern you have?

 

[VLNBYR]

I would suggest spending your time and money on your rifle that is shooting 2250, not the one that is shooting 2150.

 

[cavedweller60]

What is puzzling if the picture is really showing what looks like a domed bulge in the center of the fired case. is this the concern you have?

Yes, it is a bulge. It did it with all CX lots I tried. It's hard to see but it looks like the pin strike is plowing up one side and creating the bulge. When I first noticed it, I thought I might have an ammo issue but it did the same thing with all 3 lots I had. The guy shooting next to me wasn't having the issue with his lapua. that's why I started wondering if I had an ignition problem.

 

[foxguy]

Yes, it is a bulge. It did it with all CX lots I tried. It's hard to see but it looks like the pin strike is plowing up one side and creating the bulge. When I first noticed it, I thought I might have an ammo issue but it did the same thing with all 3 lots I had. The guy shooting next to me wasn't having the issue with his lapua. that's why I started wondering if I had an ignition problem.

Cavedweller60

I too have a 2500X action, Dymalux stocked, BM Barrel, My action is torqued at 35 In Lbs. Shooting Eley Black Box, my firing pin strikes looks very much like yours. I too have noticed the slight bulge on the Eley match fired cases. My head space is set for loose bolt closure on a .043 and tight bolt closure on a .044. I only shoot at 100 yds, so I can't state an ARA score that it will shoot. I have tuned at 100 yards and it shot a 3 shot group while tuning .295 in heigh, it shot larger groups on either side of this tuner setting. I had several lots of Eley Match ammo and selected this lot of ammo to tune with because without the tuner it was shooting appx a .900 group at 100 yards (using another rifle that didn't have a tuner) I shot multiple tuner setting, I had originally set the Tuner using the PRX method. I hope that this information is of a help to you. ??

 

[cavedweller60]

Cavedweller60

I too have a 2500X action, Dymalux stocked, BM Barrel, My action is torqued at 35 In Lbs. Shooting Eley Black Box, my firing pin strikes looks very much like yours. I too have noticed the slight bulge on the Eley match fired cases. My head space is set for loose bolt closure on a .043 and tight bolt closure on a .044. I only shoot at 100 yds, so I can't state an ARA score that it will shoot. I have tuned at 100 yards and it shot a 3 shot group while tuning .295 in heigh, it shot larger groups on either side of this tuner setting. I had several lots of Eley Match ammo and selected this lot of ammo to tune with because without the tuner it was shooting appx a .900 group at 100 yards (using another rifle that didn't have a tuner) I shot multiple tuner setting, I had originally set the Tuner using the PRX method. I hope that this information is of a help to you. ??

Thanks much. It helps a lot. I am glad to know that at least one other person is seeing that bulge. I too started with a PRX tune setting and it was wayyyyy out on the tuner. I shot about a 100 after the recommended length and 100 before it with nothing good happening. The other day I gave up on that and started at zero. I ran out of time just before 200 and it seemed to be coming together. I was so frustrated and out of time that I just figured it was a fluke. Next time out I am going to continue from there and, maybe I will find something in that area on the tuner. I have received several PMs saying that around 200 is generally where they have found nodes. We will see. Thanks again

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Yes, it is a bulge. It did it with all CX lots I tried. It's hard to see but it looks like the pin strike is plowing up one side and creating the bulge. When I first noticed it, I thought I might have an ammo issue but it did the same thing with all 3 lots I had. The guy shooting next to me wasn't having the issue with his lapua. that's why I started wondering if I had an ignition problem.

Ok, so is it just in the area of the pin hit? in the picture it looks to be circular but might just be the angle of the picture. if just the area of the hit that is normal in most cases.
Now excessive pin hit would cause flippers, shots that just go up and out for no explainable reason. too little or inconsistent hit will cause droppers shots that fall out the bottom for no reason.
what are you seeing?
Also reading your post 28 makes me believe the rifle is just not tuned. I would try turning in the tuner all the way in even if past the zero mark and then shoot 3 shots, go out by 5 clicks at a time you want the group to form at POA or just slightly above and to the right is ok, anything below POA and left is not good. your bullet exit timing is too early when that happens.

Lee

 

[GAnderson]

Thanks much. It helps a lot. I am glad to know that at least one other person is seeing that bulge. I too started with a PRX tune setting and it was wayyyyy out on the tuner. I shot about a 100 after the recommended length and 100 before it with nothing good happening. The other day I gave up on that and started at zero. I ran out of time just before 200 and it seemed to be coming together. I was so frustrated and out of time that I just figured it was a fluke. Next time out I am going to continue from there and, maybe I will find something in that area on the tuner. I have received several PMs saying that around 200 is generally where they have found nodes. We will see. Thanks again

All 3 of my 2500X's have that center "dome"...don't worry about it. Try some Midas+ ammo and realize that you may have to try several different lots before you find one that is "competitive.

 

[cavedweller60]

Ok, so is it just in the area of the pin hit? in the picture it looks to be circular but might just be the angle of the picture. if just the area of the hit that is normal in most cases.
Now excessive pin hit would cause flippers, shots that just go up and out for no explainable reason. too little or inconsistent hit will cause droppers shots that fall out the bottom for no reason.
what are you seeing?
Also reading your post 28 makes me believe the rifle is just not tuned. I would try turning in the tuner all the way in even if past the zero mark and then shoot 3 shots, go out by 5 clicks at a time you want the group to form at POA or just slightly above and to the right is ok, anything below POA and left is not good. your bullet exit timing is too early when that happens.

Lee

The dome starts at the edge of the pin hit and looks like the metal was pushed up in a slope. From the top it slopes off to the far side. It is kind of like a snow plow banking. The face where the plow is touching is quite steep and the snow runs down the back making the slope longer and more gradual. The shiny spot you can see is the face where the plow would be touching.

As to tuning, I initially started with the PRX method and I was wayyy out the with the tuner...500ish clicks. I gave up after going in and out 100 clicks and then started from zero. I made it back to right around 200, in 5 click increments, and, as I said, it seemed as though it might be coming together but, I was cold, tired and frustrated so I gave up.

I just measured a bunch of groups (ballistic-x) from the test target and, although they are certainly ugly with little if any pattern from moving the tuner, they aren't horrible when measured. There are only a few over .5 MOA and the biggest was .804 MOA. The groups were also tightening up as I got to the 175-200 click zone.

I may have just expected too much but I am more confident I will finally get there after talking with you all. I really appreciate the feedback and guidance.

 

[GAnderson]

The dome starts at the edge of the pin hit and looks like the metal was pushed up in a slope. From the top it slopes off to the far side. It is kind of like a snow plow banking. The face where the plow is touching is quite steep and the snow runs down the back making the slope longer and more gradual. The shiny spot you can see is the face where the plow would be touching.

As to tuning, I initially started with the PRX method and I was wayyy out the with the tuner...500ish clicks. I gave up after going in and out 100 clicks and then started from zero. I made it back to right around 200, in 5 click increments, and, as I said, it seemed as though it might be coming together but, I was cold, tired and frustrated so I gave up.

I just measured a bunch of groups (ballistic-x) from the test target and, although they are certainly ugly with little if any pattern from moving the tuner, they aren't horrible when measured. There are only a few over .5 MOA and the biggest was .804 MOA. The groups were also tightening up as I got to the 175-200 click zone.

I may have just expected too much but I am more confident I will finally get there after talking with you all. I really appreciate the feedback and guidance.

This is what is creating the slight dome on the face of the cartridge after it has been fired...look at the picture of the bolt face and what the red arrow is pointing to. Brass is flowing into that small beveled opening after firing. I assume that beveled "hole" was necessary to hold the bolt body in place between centers during some part of the machining process. The dome on the case head is only 0.0005 tall but it looks like more than what it actually is.

Gene

 

[cavedweller60]

This is what is creating the slight dome on the face of the cartridge after it has been fired...look at the picture of the bolt face and what the red arrow is pointing to. Brass is flowing into that small beveled opening after firing. I assume that beveled "hole" was necessary to hold the bolt body in place between centers during some part of the machining process. The dome on the case head is only 0.0005 tall but it looks like more than what it actually is.

Gene

Excellent, thanks for pointing that out. I looked at the bolt face and it never even occurred to me to consider that. I appreciate it.

 

[Evelio]

Excellent, thanks for pointing that out. I looked at the bolt face and it never even occurred to me to consider that. I appreciate it.

The older 2500X do not have that shallow indent in the bolt face, but I noticed that the last 3 new 2500X that I work on did have that indent in the center of the bolt face, they were PQP manufactured so it may be something new in the design (manufacturing) of the bolt, and when testing, they all marked the fired cases like cavedweller60 is doing.
As stated by GAnderson, the pressure inside of the fired case is making the soft brass flow into the indent in the face of the bolt.
Evelio.

 

[GAnderson]

The older 2500X do not have that shallow indent in the bolt face, but I noticed that the last 3 new 2500X that I work on did have that indent in the center of the bolt face, they were PQP manufactured so it may be something new in the design (manufacturing) of the bolt, and when testing, they all marked the fired cases like cavedweller60 is doing.
As stated by GAnderson, the pressure inside of the fired case is making the soft brass flow into the indent in the face of the bolt.
Evelio.

You are correct. I had an early Trident action and the bolt face did not have this. I have 3 2500X's and they have been purchased in just the past 3.5 years and they all have the indent.

Gene

 

[BowChamp]

The older 2500X do not have that shallow indent in the bolt face, but I noticed that the last 3 new 2500X that I work on did have that indent in the center of the bolt face, they were PQP manufactured so it may be something new in the design (manufacturing) of the bolt, and when testing, they all marked the fired cases like cavedweller60 is doing.
As stated by GAnderson, the pressure inside of the fired case is making the soft brass flow into the indent in the face of the bolt.
Evelio.

Thanks for sharing info Sir.

I thought I was losing my mind because I sure didn't remember that hole in the bolt face of the 4 2500X's I looked at.

 

[gaboy]

The older 2500X do not have that shallow indent in the bolt face, but I noticed that the last 3 new 2500X that I work on did have that indent in the center of the bolt face, they were PQP manufactured so it may be something new in the design (manufacturing) of the bolt, and when testing, they all marked the fired cases like cavedweller60 is doing.
As stated by GAnderson, the pressure inside of the fired case is making the soft brass flow into the indent in the face of the bolt.
Evelio.

I got one from Stiller about the time that Dan took over.
Jerry put 5 or 6 up for sale on his website.
Mine has the dimple in the bolt.

 

[PWNolan]

I went through this exercise over a year ago. My 2500X is from the first run in 2013. I had bought a couple new springs from Dan and decided to try one. It was whacking the case pretty hard. So I ended up going back to the spring that was in it rather than cutting and grinding one of the new springs to get the same thing






FWIW, for action screw torque Jerry has said he uses 40-45 in lbs and no less that 40

 

[cavedweller60]

Well, my original question took us on a winding road but, I'm not even sure now, if my original question was ever answered.

It doesn't really matter though, the cause of the domed heads was revealed and that is where my question kind of came from. I figured I would give you all an update just so you know where it ended. I got a FOURTH lot of CX and tested my tuner from 175 to 300. Even with 10-15 mph winds, I finally found some sweet spots by waiting for my flag tails to go limp before firing.

It appears as though the issues I was having were likely ammo related. I went from just a few groups touching in the original 3 lots I tried, to just a few groups NOT touching in the 4th lot. I had probably a dozen groups in the .1s-.2s and that many again in the .3s. They also tightened as I neared a node and then expanded again as I moved away like I have seen in the past.

I really appreciate everyone's comments and guidance...there is a lot of knowledge here.