How are you getting 3200 out of a 25-06 and 115's? Not doubting you but mine want shoot nowhere close to that with 117's??? I only get 3200 with 100 gr bullets??
25-06 vs.25-06 ackley actual experience
- Thread starter Wingnut00
- Start date
Sent you a pm about my load
Very high velocities listed here. My first 25-06 AI barrel was toast at 800 rounds. Needless to say that my second barrel hasn't been hot rodded nearly as much. I also took out a regular 25-06 barrel loading for velocity. No loads showed signs of super high pressures, but did a job on my throats. I learned my lesson the hard way.
I love my 25-06 AI, but needed to form 280 Rem brass before fireforming as the reg 25-06 brass shortened up the necks considerably below the trim to length, which I always figured might have contributed to the barrel life as well as pushing the velocity. QM
I love my 25-06 AI, but needed to form 280 Rem brass before fireforming as the reg 25-06 brass shortened up the necks considerably below the trim to length, which I always figured might have contributed to the barrel life as well as pushing the velocity. QM
nakneker
Gold $$ Contributor
I bought my first 25-06 after my Uncle complained about his 25-06 ruining all the meat on the front shoulders on a deer hunt. I've had several since and they all are fantastic deer rifles. I think we get blinded by the latest greatest bullet, BCs, and think all of our rifles have to capable of incredible long distance kills. I have rifles for that too but have a fondness for the quarterbores. If the hunt is gonna be 600 yards shots and less on medium sized game most of the time I'm gonna reach for my 25-06 or 257 ackley. They are killing machines.
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I have shot over 40,000 rounds of 25–06 over the last 50 years using both the AI and Rem chambers. My favorite is the AI Chamber. It shoots at a velocity comparable to the.257 Weatherby in all bullet sizes available. I shoot prairie dogs with the 115G Berger bullet out to 1000 yards very effectively with both.
The AI version is without doubt the deadliest deer rifle I have ever shot including those with all other cartridge diameters from .223 to .375. The only exception is the.257 Weatherby which is comparable.
95% of my shots used the 75 grain bullet as it is a deadly varmint/target bullet out to 500 yards. It has the added advantage that it has exactly the same trajectory as the 100 grain bullet out to 500 yards.
I notice the speed advantage of the AI version when targeting running game. I also notice it's devastating impact on deer as I've never had one wiggle an ear after being hit by a 100 grain Hornady interlock. I make long range precision rifle's as a hobby and all my 25-06s have shot in the .1 to .2 MOA range without much extra work. Barrel life is the best I have ever achieved when compared to any other cartridge.
As far as I am concerned there is no better deer cartridge on the planet than the 25-06 AI. The only problem with the 25 caliber rifle is that the industry has forgotten it when it comes to long range precision shooting. They insist on chambering all production rifles in 10 twist. As a result bullet manufacturers have not produced bullets in the 130 grain to 139 grain weights. That is why you see lower BC on the Quarter bore bullets currently available. The industry needs to get that chambering to an 8 twist with heavier bullets to make one of the best long-range bullets available.
If I were going to the effort of making a custom rifle in that caliber it would be 25-06 AI to take advantage of the added velocity. Cases are easy to fire form from any 06 parent case and last forever. I have talked to most leading bullet makers and they are anxious to produce larger VLD bullets in that caliber but refuse to do so until the rifle industry speeds up the twist rate in their barrels. With the emerging interest in long-range Precision across the industry I am hoping that day isn't too far off. I'm not holding my breath though because it took them 40 years to come to that realization in the.243 caliber.
I use the 100 grain bullets for deer because I get over 5 feet of penetration with good bullets and I can take avantage of the speed on running game. I've only shot one deer with a larger 25 caliber bullet using a 117g Honady interlock. Needless to say, it was quite dead upon impact. But that weight class is not necessary for deer out to 500 yards.
I would also like to say that although it's BC is lower than most other long-range bullets it is no slouch at 1000 yards when it comes to precision shooting when used in the AI chambering. Most of my thousand yard varmint rifle's are now chambered in 6MM Creedmore but I can still match themi with my trusty 25-06. At 1000 yards the prairie dogs can't seem to tell the difference.
The AI version is without doubt the deadliest deer rifle I have ever shot including those with all other cartridge diameters from .223 to .375. The only exception is the.257 Weatherby which is comparable.
95% of my shots used the 75 grain bullet as it is a deadly varmint/target bullet out to 500 yards. It has the added advantage that it has exactly the same trajectory as the 100 grain bullet out to 500 yards.
I notice the speed advantage of the AI version when targeting running game. I also notice it's devastating impact on deer as I've never had one wiggle an ear after being hit by a 100 grain Hornady interlock. I make long range precision rifle's as a hobby and all my 25-06s have shot in the .1 to .2 MOA range without much extra work. Barrel life is the best I have ever achieved when compared to any other cartridge.
As far as I am concerned there is no better deer cartridge on the planet than the 25-06 AI. The only problem with the 25 caliber rifle is that the industry has forgotten it when it comes to long range precision shooting. They insist on chambering all production rifles in 10 twist. As a result bullet manufacturers have not produced bullets in the 130 grain to 139 grain weights. That is why you see lower BC on the Quarter bore bullets currently available. The industry needs to get that chambering to an 8 twist with heavier bullets to make one of the best long-range bullets available.
If I were going to the effort of making a custom rifle in that caliber it would be 25-06 AI to take advantage of the added velocity. Cases are easy to fire form from any 06 parent case and last forever. I have talked to most leading bullet makers and they are anxious to produce larger VLD bullets in that caliber but refuse to do so until the rifle industry speeds up the twist rate in their barrels. With the emerging interest in long-range Precision across the industry I am hoping that day isn't too far off. I'm not holding my breath though because it took them 40 years to come to that realization in the.243 caliber.
I use the 100 grain bullets for deer because I get over 5 feet of penetration with good bullets and I can take avantage of the speed on running game. I've only shot one deer with a larger 25 caliber bullet using a 117g Honady interlock. Needless to say, it was quite dead upon impact. But that weight class is not necessary for deer out to 500 yards.
I would also like to say that although it's BC is lower than most other long-range bullets it is no slouch at 1000 yards when it comes to precision shooting when used in the AI chambering. Most of my thousand yard varmint rifle's are now chambered in 6MM Creedmore but I can still match themi with my trusty 25-06. At 1000 yards the prairie dogs can't seem to tell the difference.
AckleymanII
Gold $$ Contributor
I had an ole boy in Texas build me a 25/06 after hunting on a ranch he had leased. He was a helicopter pilot and machinist working on oil rig stuff. ALL of the top deer hunters in the club shot his 25/06's, all of them. After meeting them at a Ranch get together where I cooked a hog for them, they swore you were a hair lipped gay if you did not shoot a 25/06.
Well, they started talking about the speed they were getting out of their std 25/06's that was built by the helicopter astronaut, with the 100g sierra flat base doing 3600 and the 117g Sierra doing 3350. I had already owned at least 4 rifles in this caliber and could not figure out how they were coming close to these numbers.
Well, I got to talk to the gunsmith and he was using 12 twist shilens, 26" long finished, std 25/06 reamer made by PTG, but using a case full of R#25 with a 215 with the 100g Sierra flat base at 3600 and shooting bug holes. These ole boys had a rifle range on the fenced ranch and I saw three rifles shoot tiny clover leafs.
So, I sent the gunsmith an Remington 700 action and a McMillen stock, Shilen 12T barrel to be finished at 26" per Texan instructions.
I got the rifle back and put a Leupold 36x on it to work up loads. My first group after sight in was in the 2's with the 100g sierra Flat base and my Ohler 35P had 3615 fps and an extreme spread of 9 fps...holy cow! I shot two more groups to verify(loading at the range), and the groups were all in the 2's. Pressure on the cases was minimal, rounded primers, no stiff extraction, no thinning of lettering, nor case head swipe on a non trued action. I necked sized the brass for five more firings.
So, next I loaded up the 117g Sierra flat base at the prescribed Texan Recipe with R#25. The group was in the very low 4's(3350 fps) and repeated for 3 more three shot groups. I surmised that the 117 was barely stable in the 12 twist. Pressure was max for this load.
I gave the gunsmith a call and thanked him for such a fine job, and he warned me to not use those loads in a 9" or a 10" twist rifle that the 12" twist along with the Shilen barrel developed much less pressure. Well, I already had found out that I had to lower the powder charge of R#25 FIVE grains in my Remington 25/06 Varmint to keep from getting head swipes on my brass with the 100g loads.
Most of my shots on deer are less than 300 yards, and this rifle served me well till my best friend saw me shooting it at the rifle range and had to have it.
I built a 25/06 AI next, achieved 3600 with 100g with ease in a 10T using a Hart barrel, went to shooting the 100g Hornady with R#25.
I wanted a rifle that would detonate Rock Chucks, so went with a 30"(finished)Hart 12" Twist, zero freebore 257 Weatherby that pushed the 100g Sierra BTSP at 4000 fps into very, very tiny groups using R#22, fed 215's. Jeez, chucks detonated like paint balls hitting a concrete wall.
Too bad that the industry has neglected this caliber, as it kills deer real fast, just a 25/7 Remington Mag would have set the world on fire with sales, low recoil and super accuracy, and a lot easier to tune than the 264 Winchester mag.
Most of us that deer hunt like for deer to die real fast, eliminate runners. This means a LOT OF SHOCK have to be put on the deer with good shot placement. The 25 caliber seems to do this in spades with just the regular 25/06's with a bullet that will expand(cup and core). In addition, the best accuracy I have ever had with partitions has been with the 100g in the 25 caliber, 1/2" groups are not uncommon at all.
A range acquaintance of mine that is an avid elk hunter killed six bull elk on guided elk hunts with a 257 Weatherby Mark 5. Then he had a guide tell him that the 257 Weatherby was NOT an elk rifle. Duhh...my buddy traded the rifle off for a $4800 custom rifle and all he has had is elk running off ever since, but the internet tells him he made the right decision to trade it off. He cusses the new rifle all the time, but he feels good about having the latest and greatest. Pass the Zanex.
Well, they started talking about the speed they were getting out of their std 25/06's that was built by the helicopter astronaut, with the 100g sierra flat base doing 3600 and the 117g Sierra doing 3350. I had already owned at least 4 rifles in this caliber and could not figure out how they were coming close to these numbers.
Well, I got to talk to the gunsmith and he was using 12 twist shilens, 26" long finished, std 25/06 reamer made by PTG, but using a case full of R#25 with a 215 with the 100g Sierra flat base at 3600 and shooting bug holes. These ole boys had a rifle range on the fenced ranch and I saw three rifles shoot tiny clover leafs.
So, I sent the gunsmith an Remington 700 action and a McMillen stock, Shilen 12T barrel to be finished at 26" per Texan instructions.
I got the rifle back and put a Leupold 36x on it to work up loads. My first group after sight in was in the 2's with the 100g sierra Flat base and my Ohler 35P had 3615 fps and an extreme spread of 9 fps...holy cow! I shot two more groups to verify(loading at the range), and the groups were all in the 2's. Pressure on the cases was minimal, rounded primers, no stiff extraction, no thinning of lettering, nor case head swipe on a non trued action. I necked sized the brass for five more firings.
So, next I loaded up the 117g Sierra flat base at the prescribed Texan Recipe with R#25. The group was in the very low 4's(3350 fps) and repeated for 3 more three shot groups. I surmised that the 117 was barely stable in the 12 twist. Pressure was max for this load.
I gave the gunsmith a call and thanked him for such a fine job, and he warned me to not use those loads in a 9" or a 10" twist rifle that the 12" twist along with the Shilen barrel developed much less pressure. Well, I already had found out that I had to lower the powder charge of R#25 FIVE grains in my Remington 25/06 Varmint to keep from getting head swipes on my brass with the 100g loads.
Most of my shots on deer are less than 300 yards, and this rifle served me well till my best friend saw me shooting it at the rifle range and had to have it.
I built a 25/06 AI next, achieved 3600 with 100g with ease in a 10T using a Hart barrel, went to shooting the 100g Hornady with R#25.
I wanted a rifle that would detonate Rock Chucks, so went with a 30"(finished)Hart 12" Twist, zero freebore 257 Weatherby that pushed the 100g Sierra BTSP at 4000 fps into very, very tiny groups using R#22, fed 215's. Jeez, chucks detonated like paint balls hitting a concrete wall.
Too bad that the industry has neglected this caliber, as it kills deer real fast, just a 25/7 Remington Mag would have set the world on fire with sales, low recoil and super accuracy, and a lot easier to tune than the 264 Winchester mag.
Most of us that deer hunt like for deer to die real fast, eliminate runners. This means a LOT OF SHOCK have to be put on the deer with good shot placement. The 25 caliber seems to do this in spades with just the regular 25/06's with a bullet that will expand(cup and core). In addition, the best accuracy I have ever had with partitions has been with the 100g in the 25 caliber, 1/2" groups are not uncommon at all.
A range acquaintance of mine that is an avid elk hunter killed six bull elk on guided elk hunts with a 257 Weatherby Mark 5. Then he had a guide tell him that the 257 Weatherby was NOT an elk rifle. Duhh...my buddy traded the rifle off for a $4800 custom rifle and all he has had is elk running off ever since, but the internet tells him he made the right decision to trade it off. He cusses the new rifle all the time, but he feels good about having the latest and greatest. Pass the Zanex.
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You make an excellent point Ackleyman... a 12 twist for a 25-06 AI delivers SPEED. My first one built in 1967 had a 12 twist. I shot 75g to 100g bullets at the WOW velocities you describe. If you are hunting deer sized game within 500 yards or shooting varmints, that is all you need. You make me want to build one of those again because it was so effective and so amazing.
I'm going to experiment with the other side of the spectrum now though using a 131g bullet in a 7.75 or 8 twist (still pondering). I know I will like its 1000 yard precision but you can't beat the 12 twist rifle you describe for most practical hunting purposes. I never attempted to shoot anything larger than 100g bullets in it.
With today's premium hunting bullets, 100g bullets will knock just about anything in North America off its feet at that speed. I've shot clean through big white tails and mulies end-to-end with 100g bullets in that rifle and they dropped like someone had dropped a safe on their head out to 500 yards.
I had countless crazy impact observations with it too. For example, I shot a white tail at about 110 yards standing across the canyon. As light was fading, all I could clearly see of it was the white patch on the front of the neck. I shot there with the 90g bullet going through about 3/4" behind the front of the neck. The deer dropped without a kick, dead instantly. Upon field dressing, I noticed the lungs were mush as was the liver... looked like finely ground hamburger. There was also a 10" rip in the aorta immediately above the heart. I have a ton of stories like that and I've only seen it with the 12 twist 25-06 AI; never with the 25-06 Rem 10 twist.
I also used to hunt furs with that rifle. I'd float down the river and shoot beavers in the foot with 75g bullets at about 3950 fps as they stood on the bank. It was common to pick them up with a foot missing. The strange observation was that in most cases, their leg was broken in multiple places, their skull was fractured and their brains were scrambled. Never did they make one kick to roll into the water where they would have sunk like a rock. There was never a mark on a hide.
I'm going to experiment with the other side of the spectrum now though using a 131g bullet in a 7.75 or 8 twist (still pondering). I know I will like its 1000 yard precision but you can't beat the 12 twist rifle you describe for most practical hunting purposes. I never attempted to shoot anything larger than 100g bullets in it.
With today's premium hunting bullets, 100g bullets will knock just about anything in North America off its feet at that speed. I've shot clean through big white tails and mulies end-to-end with 100g bullets in that rifle and they dropped like someone had dropped a safe on their head out to 500 yards.
I had countless crazy impact observations with it too. For example, I shot a white tail at about 110 yards standing across the canyon. As light was fading, all I could clearly see of it was the white patch on the front of the neck. I shot there with the 90g bullet going through about 3/4" behind the front of the neck. The deer dropped without a kick, dead instantly. Upon field dressing, I noticed the lungs were mush as was the liver... looked like finely ground hamburger. There was also a 10" rip in the aorta immediately above the heart. I have a ton of stories like that and I've only seen it with the 12 twist 25-06 AI; never with the 25-06 Rem 10 twist.
I also used to hunt furs with that rifle. I'd float down the river and shoot beavers in the foot with 75g bullets at about 3950 fps as they stood on the bank. It was common to pick them up with a foot missing. The strange observation was that in most cases, their leg was broken in multiple places, their skull was fractured and their brains were scrambled. Never did they make one kick to roll into the water where they would have sunk like a rock. There was never a mark on a hide.
nmkid
Gold $$ Contributor
I'm looking real hard at the new 131 gr Blackjack bullet. Berger twist calculator says it should be fully stable at 3500 fps at my elevation, (200') up to over 6000' elevation with a 7.25 twist. Now if I could just get Blackjack to answer an email, maybe I could get going on my winter project! I plan to shoot them at around 3200 fps to save on the barrel. Or maybe wring that 25-06 AI all the way out!
Go to Blackjack's Facebook page. He has replied within an hour or sooner everytime I've messaged during my work day.
nmkid
Gold $$ Contributor
I do a lot of things but, I don't do Facebook
Although this is an old thread, it is an interesting one that I'm sure is still referenced by those considering the 25-06 AI. I've now shot about 500 rounds of 131g .257 caliber Ace bullets from Blackjackbullets.com and they are the real deal. They are as accurate as any championship long range bullet. The .330 G7 BC is not overstated. I'm currently shooting them in a custom 25 Creedmoor with a 26" Bartlein 7.25 twist barrel. I decided to use this chambering for starters because I like the low recoil and most of my shooting with this toy has been targets at 600 to 1000 yards.
I'm still likely to make a 25-06 AI with an 8 twist barrel as a top notch hunting rifle. The only thing holding me back at this point is that at 3200 fps, the 131g bullet has a noticeable recoil... too much for me when I want to shoot 200 rounds in a sitting. Tthe normally mild mannered 25-06 AI delivers recoil more like a hot .270 and is best used for hunting applications because of that (unless of course you are shooting 1 mile targets and need something with reach)l. As a reward for that recoil however, it can deliver deadly long range deer and elk hunting with the best of them. The folks at Blackjack have been most helpful and most premium barrel makers are making great fast twist .25 caliber barrels at this point. I've tested most .25 caliber bullet weights in my 7.25 twist barrel and they all shoot fine, except for the 75g bullets which start to disintegrate around 3700 fps. I suspect they will shoot better in the 8 twist barrel.
I'm still likely to make a 25-06 AI with an 8 twist barrel as a top notch hunting rifle. The only thing holding me back at this point is that at 3200 fps, the 131g bullet has a noticeable recoil... too much for me when I want to shoot 200 rounds in a sitting. Tthe normally mild mannered 25-06 AI delivers recoil more like a hot .270 and is best used for hunting applications because of that (unless of course you are shooting 1 mile targets and need something with reach)l. As a reward for that recoil however, it can deliver deadly long range deer and elk hunting with the best of them. The folks at Blackjack have been most helpful and most premium barrel makers are making great fast twist .25 caliber barrels at this point. I've tested most .25 caliber bullet weights in my 7.25 twist barrel and they all shoot fine, except for the 75g bullets which start to disintegrate around 3700 fps. I suspect they will shoot better in the 8 twist barrel.
2506 ai 1-10 twt douglas, savage single shot action, started with 90 hpbt great accuracy, little bit soft on close pigs, went to 80 ttsx and i love them very accurate in my rifle
At 3860 fps ,
I use 270 brass to keep neck length
Once fire formed the brass needs very little attention
That barrel lasted 18 yrs !
But I'm not a volume shooter !
I believe 200-300 fps gain over standard 2506
My 3860 fps load was warm not hot ! Good brass life,accurate and effective on game
At 3860 fps ,
I use 270 brass to keep neck length
Once fire formed the brass needs very little attention
That barrel lasted 18 yrs !
But I'm not a volume shooter !
I believe 200-300 fps gain over standard 2506
My 3860 fps load was warm not hot ! Good brass life,accurate and effective on game
TZaun
Gold $$ Contributor
@dakotaman what velocities are you finding the 131 likes best? I'm running them through a 25 SLR and find they shoot best around 2890. I've tried 4 different powders (H4350, H4831SC, N150, N160) and have run them from 2850 to 3050. N150 and H4350 have given the best accuracy with N150 having the advantage.
Took off the 25-06AI barrel as it was basically toast. Got a Helix 6 CF 1-7.25” twist coming and will be chambered in 25-284. 500 131 BJ waiting for barrel to arrive. As mentioned earlier the AI with a 115 Berger is a deer killer. I was shooting them at 3350 FPS out of a 26” Krieger with H1000. Hope this 25-284 treats me good.
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