.243 problems

[sparetime]

.243 Questions.
I started handloading. My first project was to find a very reliable and accurate varmit load for my .243. I started out with 75 grain V-Max bullets and 3031 powder. The maximum load was 36.6 grains, so I started at 90% of maximum load, or 33.0 grains, and loaded 5 rounds (I could have done 3 in hindsight) at .2 grain intervals, 33.2, 33.4, etc. to the maximum load.
I had previously sighted in the rifle with factory ammo, and it was on paper. I didn’t really care when I went to the range today to fire the rounds if the rifle was sighted perfectly or not, I was looking for grouping consistency. I was not able to get anything I would call a decent group. I was shooting the targets at 100 yards. It seemed the first few rounds would be good and then the bullets would start to drift right, sometimes several inches. I had probably shot 20 rounds through the gun before today.
The weather was 55 and sunny, so it wasn’t terribly hot out. I was allowing the rifle to cool some between every 5 rounds and I was running the bore snake through after 5 rounds as well. I had about 85 total shots in a little over an hour. I would change targets, clean the gun, fiddle around, allowing it to cool. I would usually wait until I could hold my hand on the barrel for several seconds before I would start shooting again.
I was also shooting off from sand bags, I wasn’t using a sled. I’m not the best shooter out there. That said, I don’t think the movement in the shots was due to operator error. It happened the same with about every shot string (I can usually recognize when I’ve flinched).
Any suggestions on a course of action to resolve the issue? Could it have been a heat problem? I haven’t had a barrel heat to cause drift like this before with only 3-4 rounds in a sitting before. The gun is a Remingtion 700 with a hunting contour barrel. When initially trying to diagnose the problem, I thought of heat first. However, it did this with the first few rounds too, when the barrel should have been cold (or at least not hot). Should I try a different bullet or a different powder?
Second question - Has anyone had success with the 75 grain V-Max in a rifle like this. I need to confirm the barrel twist, but it is a factory barrel, so the twist should handle a 75 grain bullet (it’s not terribly light or terribly heavy, so the standard twist rate should work?)

 

[Preacher]

Fully float the barrel and try it again..........
Maybe your rifle don't care for the 75 grain V-max or the 3031...
Try some 85's and H-4350.........
Do one thing at a time till you have it figured out.....

 

[jonbearman]

I agree with preacher and would like to add using h4831 as another fine powder in .243.I used it with the last of my winchester 75 grain hollow pooints and they were spot on out of the same gun you have.As for shooting 85 rounds in a hour,well that is way to fast and I will bet you the barrel was pretty hot . This will cause problems with any barrel.

 

[fdshuster]

35 grs. of IMR 3031 with the 75 gr. Sierra #1510 was my standard load for 2 chamberings in .243 Winchester. Both had custom, hand lapped barrels, a Hart & a Shilen, so accuracy was never an issue, until the barrels were burned out at an average of 1400 rounds. With a factory rifle and barrel, who knows? A lot of unknown factors here. Shooting off a front rest & bunny ear rear bag, good solid bench, quality scope, receiver bedded, wind (using flags?), barrel floated, and I could go on and on. Just noted you were shooting off a sand bag, and I assume it's a standard Remington stock with the narrow, semi round forend, another problem with the torqueing/twisting during firing while the bullet is still in the barrel. You have a lot going against you if trying for minimum group sizes. Whatever size groups you are getting, Remington would consider them acceptable for a "hunting" rifle. It was not built with precision accuracy in mind. At the other end of the extreme look closely at a dedicated competition benchrest rifle & compare it with your Remington. For an eye opener check out the Lilja borescope video of a new unfired factory barrel, on this sites home page. Not trying to throw cold water on your efforts, just pointing out the limitations of most off the shelf factory rifles.

 

[fdshuster]

This posting brought back memories of another factory rifle I bought used about 6 years ago. It too was a Rem. 700 factory chambered in 243. I wanted it for the receiver only so the plastic stock & lightweight sporter barrel was not a concern. Gave the barrel to a friend of mine who wanted to cut it & rechamber for another of his rifles. He has a lathe, and being an experienced hobby machinest wanted to fit it to one of his rifles. The barrel was bent to the extent that it was not possible to do any machining on it. It went into the scrap barrel. The receiver proved to be warped from the factory heat treating, so that had to be corrected before a high quality barrel could be installed.

 

[CPorter]

85 rounds in 60 minutes gets my varmint barrel a bit warm. A sporter barrel would heat up more and probably throw shots every where.

Assuming a 24" barrel quickload & optimal barrel time theory predicts best performance at 35.6 grains IMR-3031. Using IMR-4350 it predicts around 42.1 grains. All assuming a 2.71 OAL.

 

[fullersson]

I had really good accuracy from 46.0gr of H1000 but I was shooting a 105 VLD Berger. IMO you're shooting way to fast. I shoot benchrest and my barrel is 1.250 at the muzzle and I won't shoot anywhere near that many rounds in that amount of time. You said your first few shots did the same thing and if you started out on a clean barrel that could have been the cause of the first few flyers. When dealing with advice I try to look for consistency and a lot of advice here is suggesting that amount of shooting in that time frame is way too much. Also bare in mind that the .243win barrel life is only about 1200 - 1500 rounds (just food for thought). Good luck, Brian Brown.

 

[WyleWD]

85 shots in an hour is the lion's share of the issue IMHO. That barrel will not take that rate of fire for very long, nor will it be very accurate for more than a few shots at a time.

With a sporter weight barrel one should only be concerned about the first 3-4 shots. The first shot out of a cold fouled barrel is the one that should hit exactly where you want it to.

75gr Vmaxes are normally a very accurate bullet from a 243. You might want to try some 85gr Sierra BTHP bullets and 4350 powder. If it will not shoot with either or both of those you may well have another not so obvious issue. Good luck and let us know how it works out.WD

 

[mattri]

FWIW I've had two .243s, one a factory sporter and the other a custom build with a Shilen barrel, neither would shoot the 75gr V-maxs. Try the above suggestions, and if you can get some Nosler 70gr bts you might try those as well.

 

[1000yardstare]

Degrease the bearing surfaces of the locking lugs on the front of the bolt, blacken with an indelible marker, work the bolt in the action on a fired shell to put back pressure on the lugs and check the % bearing surface on each lug. Wouldn`t be surprised if you find 10% on one lug and 20% on the other.

I have a Rem 700 SPS in .270 WSM which is amazingly accurate despite the 40% bearing on one lug and I would guess about 5% on the other, hard to tell.

Also Rem 700 recoil lugs can be "not square" requiring rebedding.

I have used two different `smiths with excellents reps to build F Class rifles on Rem 700 and 722 actions. They both insist on squaring the locking lugs, recoil lug and bolt face on a Rem action before they will install a target barrel.

Good luck.

Bill

 

[fdshuster]

P72: Not "run over by a truck". I've had several highly experienced professional gunsmiths ( each with well over 25 years experience), tell me that they have seen numerous lightweight factory sporter contour barrels that were bent when they removed them for re-barreling. They've gone on to say they seldom see the problem with the heavy weight & varmint contours. If anyone doubts that some factory receivers are warped, pull the bolt out of the receiver & look at the locking lugs. Many times I see one lug with a nice even rubbing wear pattern, and the other lug will have all the original factory blueing still on the lug. Yes, sometimes you will find a really rotten looking bore that will shoot well ( I have 2), but the majority will not. That's why hand-lapped custom barrels are used by those of us who are looking for the highest level of accuracy. Two completely different types of rifles: one that will do an adequate job as a hunting rifle, but may come up short on precision, and the other that is custom built with extreme precision being the goal. You cannot buy Chevy Cobalt & expect the performance of a Z1 Corvette. JMO

 

[sparetime]

Thanks for the input. I really appreciate it.

Sounds like the first thing I need to do is slow down and let the barrel cool. I will say the first 3 shots were generally very accurate with the last two tailing off by 1-2 inches from the initial group (generally). So I suspect heat was a problem, I just didn't think 3 rounds would heat up the barrel that fast, live and learn I guess. I kept all of the paper, so I'm going to look at it again tonight and see if it looks like I was getting good three shot groups.

What I'm basically trying to do is get a good coyote rifle. One that shoots a slightly heavier bullet to try and stabilize in the wind. I have been using a .223 up until now. I like to spot and stalk, so often I'm wandering around a section of land on snowshoes, and a lighter rifle is nice. I wasn't expecting benchrest accuracy, but it also sounds like I'm probably expecting more than I should (1" groups was my goal at 100 yards).

I am surprised that a factory barrel will burn out in 1,500 rounds. I don't have a cronograph, but the book velocity was around 3,300 fps. So I didn't think it was a barrel burning round.

 

[Romulus]

1" from a sporting barrel is not out of the question given you are careful with loads, cleaning, heat, and string duration. Try to develop the best 3 shot groups you can with that rifle. Shoot 3 at a reasonable pace and let it cool.

 

[BoydAllen]

My method of gauging barrel heat is whether I can hold my hand on the hottest part, comfortably. Using this method, you should be able to come up with a rate of fire that works.

 

[WyleWD]

Thanks for the input. I really appreciate it.

What I'm basically trying to do is get a good coyote rifle. One that shoots a slightly heavier bullet to try and stabilize in the wind.
I am surprised that a factory barrel will burn out in 1,500 rounds. I don't have a cronograph, but the book velocity was around 3,300 fps. So I didn't think it was a barrel burning round.

The 243 is a capable rifle for what you are wanting to do with it. My first Rem 700 barrel started to go away after about 1000 rounds. Many don't (want to) believe this, but I've seen them toasted and never shoot well again in as little as 300 rounds with a rapid fire rate. Just remember the first shot out of a cold and fouled barrel is the one that counts.

You don't have to worry about follow up shots if that one hits where ya want it on a 'yote. WD

 

[fdshuster]

sparetime: O.K., now I understand, you are not trying to make a match capable target rifle out of it. Your original posting did not mention what the purpose of the rifle was & you spoke only of accuracy, or the lack thereof. As said by others, barrel heat is your primary handicap & yes, with 3 rounds with a 243 the sporter contour will heat up to the point of spreading the shots. I have a normally very accurate Hart barreled Ruger#1 chambered in 223 & cannot fire more than 5 without setting it aside to cool. If not the shots will start walking high & to the right. The 243 is rated as overbore & that can be verified by the article listed on this sites homepage. A very informative piece of information, and 1000 to 1500 is realistic. My 243 barrels did very well 'til around 800 rounds fired, then they were all downhill after that, with they all being replaced by 1400. Enjoy the rifle & when the barrel is at the end of life, have it rebarreled with a hand-lapped custom barrel, done by a competent 'smith & it will be like getting a whole new rifle.

 

[bheadboy]

Also as above, try the Sierra 70gr Blitzking, they shoot

Bob

 

[sparetime]

Again, thank you everyone for the valuable input. After looking at the targets again tonight, they were not as bad as I was thinking. Some of the three shot groups were actually quite good. A fresh set of eyes, and help with realistic expectations from this site makes things look better.

Thank you.

 

[fdshuster]

sparetime: And one final comment from me. I always limit my factory rifles to 3 shot groups, simply because I do not expect them to perform like the custom built ones, they are required to produce my standard of acceptable groups with 5 or even 10 shots. As the capabilities of the rifle increase, so does the height of the bar. A very valid reason why the local benchrest varmint , for score match's have seperate classes for custom and factory rifles. Have fun.

 

[NilesCoyote]

sparetime, FWIW, I wrote this a few months ago but it may apply here with what you are seeing...

Barrel temperature and its effects on accuracy.

I receive the task from one in my Montana hunting party to develop a load for his 13 year old son to use hunting mule deer. The rifle is a Remington 700 ADL chambered in 223 with the light or sporter weight barrel profile (all factory and a 1 in 12 twist rifling). First thing I did was clean it so I would have place to start. While cleaning I discovered that this rifle has two barrel pads manufactured into the plastic molded stock located right at the end of the barrel channel in the 5 and 7 o’clock position. “So the barrel is not a free floater, thinks I, this ought to be interesting.”

We had decided to use the Barnes TSX 53 grain bullet so we would not have any fear of bullet blow ups if jr were to hit bone when taking his shot. I followed Barnes recommendations and had the bullets set to jump .05” into the lands. I worked up few test loads and went shooting.

What I found when shooting was interesting. This coming from a guy who’s rifles are all factory varmint contours or heavier. The first shot hit paper so I fired the first group before making any adjustments to the 3-9 power millet scope. I then made the scope adjustment and fired a second group. WOW an inch higher than the two inches I had adjusted for. I double checked the scope. Yup 1/4 moa indicated on the capped turret dial.

Anyway, I decided to move along and shoot the rest of my test loads. In which I found two loads worth exploring for the next trip; I am using IMR 8208 and just like I had thought, the better performing loads were right at the top end of Hodgdon’s loading data. Back to the loading room I go... and loaded my next set, this time choosing the two better loads. I loaded these the same but I seated the bullet .03” off the lands and a second set .07” off the lands. This time I brought some varmint loads to shoot that I had made for another rifle so I could see what was going on with this rifle/scope combo without expending expensive Barnes bullets.

When I got back to my range I fired a group of five of the varmint loads. From the resulting pattern I knew I did not have a scope problem but something else was afoot... shots 1-3 were all inside of a inch of each other in a slight vertical climb and shots 4 and 5 were a full 1.5” higher also in a vertical pattern. All shots were fired inside of a 90 seconds. “So” thinks I, “I bet I know what’s going on now.” More on that in a bit. I fired my test samples and was rewarded with a good grouping with the two loads seated .03” off the lands. Both were about 1” So I went back to the loading bench and loaded up some more of those this time just to zero the scope and get a crono reading. But before I did this I just had to satisfy my curiosity.

I disassembled the rifle and dropped the action into a BDL stock that had a Varmint barrel channel and heading back to my shooting area. The varmint barrel channel allowed the barrel to free float. Using the varmint ammo I fired a series of 5 shots over the same 90 seconds and before you think it... yes they all hit in a sporadic but circular pattern. So, I had been thinking that the barrel pads where causing the climb and I believe I proved this theory correct. But just not yet... My initial thought was as the barrel expanded from heat it increased the pressure on the pads and causing the impact to climb. Not to be proved wrong I put the original stock back on the action and torque it down to the setting I had used the first time when cleaning the rifle and waited for the new day to dawn.

Day two.

I headed back to my shooting area and started my new test. This time equipped with my super scientific barrel temperature monitoring device, a meat thermometer. Not the best I am sure and yes I will clean it off before using it on steaks. But it worked for what I wanted to do.

As a hunter we all know that the first shot is the most critical. A second may be required but the first one should be all that is needed. The air temp was 74 degrees when I started testing. I fired my first shot, stuck the thermometer down the muzzle and watched the temperature climb slowly four degrees and then start falling. I recorded the peak temp, and velocity (as I was shooting over the crono this time)and waited… and waited… and waited some more. After six minutes I was down to 76 degrees and I figured this was close enough. Fired round two and did the same as on the pervious shot. This went on for about 40 minutes for 6 shots or 2 groups of three. Guess what... Zero impact climb on target for each group.

So at 74 degrees it takes about 6 minutes with a 223 equipped with a 24” sporter barrel, .65” dia muzzle to get almost back to ambient air temperature. Hope you have enjoyed reading this as much as I have testing it. :-\ 8)