22X243 MIDDLESTEAD

[Savageseven]

HI guys im thinking about building a insane fast 22 cal rifle. ( dont care about barrel life as i have a few barrels)
thinking of building a 22x243 middlestead with a 1-8 twist pushing the 44 grain hammer hunter bullet.
with this combo i should see 4400 fps i would think.. comments on your opinion of powder i should use for fastest velocity?

 

[matthias]

I would think a slower twist would be beneficial. Even a 1-12 would stabilize that light bullet.

 

[NZ_Fclass]

22-284 and be damned!

 

[alf]

Had one built a long time ago, standard load was 55 grain Ballistic Tips at 4100.

Just for S&G's, I found a good load with 40 grain BT's at 4600 too.

Ended up selling it due to excessive weight.

 

[billshehane]

Even if you were to twist it 1-14 the 44gn. bullets better be tough or you will blow bullets before ya get to the target. Been there-- done that.

 

[mikecr]

Well, slightly better barrel life than a 22BMG

 

[Kurz]

HI guys im thinking about building a insane fast 22 cal rifle. ( dont care about barrel life as i have a few barrels)

So barrel life has no bearing on the discussion. It's of no importance to the OP.

thinking of building a 22x243 middlestead with a 1-8 twist pushing the 44 grain hammer hunter bullet.

Even if you were to twist it 1-14 the 44gn. bullets better be tough or you will blow bullets before ya get to the target. Been there-- done that.

He's using solid bullets in his example.

But here is where you might have an addition thought regarding that twist rate. The 1:8" twist would be fine if you were thinking about shooting some of the longer, heavier bullets as well. But if you are only considering the 44 gr. Hammer or the 45 gr. Barnes TSX (both solids) then you might think about the 1:12" twist as being being more appropriate. This could be a hellish varmint rifle! No great distances due to BC and lightweight bullets but it sure could be fun at the shorter distances.

I shot the .22-243 Ackley Improved and the .224 Texas Trophy Hunter several years ago. I was using the 75 gr. AMAX most of time so my velocities were a tad slower. The 30 degree shoulder and moderate case capacity are better suited to the barrels in the 26" range. More case capacity and you need longer barrels.

Have a ton of fun!

 

[0.1 Aggregate]

It is doubtful the OP needs a 1:8” twist rate. The bullet maker recommends a 1:12.5” or faster, and given the ultra-high velocity cartridge to be used a 1:8” would probably be a liability rather than an advantage. He may want to contact the bullet maker and ask them to run their bullet stability program to find the slowest optimum twist rate for his conditions.

 

[fredo]

The Middlested is a nice case, great niche of .224 cal. performance that the recent .22Creed(less) has tried ca$hing in on. But old timers have been running straight .22-243s & TTHs for a long time, so it’s nothing new...
Given the mild “improvement” of the Middie, I’d steer ya either to stay simple, vanilla .22-243. Or, if you’re gonna toil thru a fire forming step, go full AI with a 40deg shoulder & get all the capacity ya can. And the AI case feeds slick thru an AICS magazine, so no worries on function. And either one is easily loaded for, via parent case (bushing) dies..
I’m a HUGE fan of the .22-243AI, have a few of them, after a happy stint with a straight .22-243. Formed Lapua brass lasts a long time, you can run slow burn powders (1:8tw) behind heavies to mitigate throat burn & keep pressure in check for happy brass. For sure, a 75-80gr bullet going 35-3600 is just lovely! Kills coyotes like a bolt of lightning, and deer with a 62 or 70TSX will get 2 holes poked thru. I formed cases on chucks all summer, and the FF loads are super dooper accurate...
That all said, my .220Redline flat out embarrasses my .22-243AIs, to the tune of pushing a 75gr .224 bullet ~ 500fps faster! So, although I no longer consider it THAT fast anymore, the .22-243AI remains my favorite coyote cartridge, bar NONE. I do have a 1:12 for 55-60s, but the 1:8s with 75-80s is dandy...
The allure of ‘boutique’ bullets escapes me, when happiness is so easily found with Hornady, Berger & Barnes.
Good luck & have fun!

 

[Jason Boersma]

Fast twist will put lots of rpm on the bullet and be much more explosive on varmints. A very trusted individual told me about this years ago

 

[Savageseven]

The Middlested is a nice case, great niche of .224 cal. performance that the recent .22Creed(less) has tried ca$hing in on. But old timers have been running straight .22-243s & TTHs for a long time, so it’s nothing new...
Given the mild “improvement” of the Middie, I’d steer ya either to stay simple, vanilla .22-243. Or, if you’re gonna toil thru a fire forming step, go full AI with a 40deg shoulder & get all the capacity ya can. And the AI case feeds slick thru an AICS magazine, so no worries on function. And either one is easily loaded for, via parent case (bushing) dies..
I’m a HUGE fan of the .22-243AI, have a few of them, after a happy stint with a straight .22-243. Formed Lapua brass lasts a long time, you can run slow burn powders (1:8tw) behind heavies to mitigate throat burn & keep pressure in check for happy brass. For sure, a 75-80gr bullet going 35-3600 is just lovely! Kills coyotes like a bolt of lightning, and deer with a 62 or 70TSX will get 2 holes poked thru. I formed cases on chucks all summer, and the FF loads are super dooper accurate...
That all said, my .220Redline flat out embarrasses my .22-243AIs, to the tune of pushing a 75gr .224 bullet ~ 500fps faster! So, although I no longer consider it THAT fast anymore, the .22-243AI remains my favorite coyote cartridge, bar NONE. I do have a 1:12 for 55-60s, but the 1:8s with 75-80s is dandy...
The allure of ‘boutique’ bullets escapes me, when happiness is so easily found with Hornady, Berger & Barnes.
Good luck & have fun!

What powder did you use with a 1-8 twist and a 75 grain A-Max bullet ?

 

[B23]

What powder did you use with a 1-8 twist and a 75 grain A-Max bullet ?

I don't know what others are using but in my 224 Terminator, my gunsmiths version of a 22-243 Improved, RL26 was the best for velocity. I'm shooting the 80gr ELD-M 3650 w/RL26

 

[dfrosch]

I used R19 and H4831 to push 75 to 80 grain bullets in my Middlested. The 77 grain Match King gave excellent results.

Guessing that something between Varget and 4350 would be better for the lightweight ones. I'd probably start with one of the 4350 variants..

 

[Savageseven]

I don't know what others are using but in my 224 Terminator, my gunsmiths version of a 22-243 Improved, RL26 was the best for velocity. I'm shooting the 80gr ELD-M 3650 w/RL26

Looks like the .224 terminator has a 35 degree shoulder vs the 22-243AI with a 40 degree ??
but also looks like if i went with the .224 terminator I could get custom dies correct?

 

[Savageseven]

Will Varget or H4350 give me good results with a 75 grain Hornady Amax bullet in a 1-8 twist?

 

[Benchrest Braxton]

Will Varget or H4350 give me good results with a 75 grain Hornady Amax bullet in a 1-8 twist?

H4350 should be about perfect. Primal rights Greg has had much luck with that powder in his 22 creedmoor which is very similar to the 22-243ai.

 

[B23]

Looks like the .224 terminator has a 35 degree shoulder vs the 22-243AI with a 40 degree ??
but also looks like if i went with the .224 terminator I could get custom dies correct?

Not only does Defensive Edge sell the dies but they have Lapua formed brass you can purchase as well.

 

[fredo]

From my experience, both Varget & 4350 are too ‘fast’ a burn rate for a 75 from a .22-243AI. Anyone with Quickload and a clue will tell ya same. I run H1000 behind a 75, Retumbo behind an 80, and RL22 to fire form...
The reason 4350 works in the Creed(less) is because it’s quite a bit smaller in case capacity. About ~12%, depending on headstamp. Hence, the need for a faster burn powder to push a same weight bullet, from a case with ~12%LESS capacity than a .22-243AI. Basically, ya gotta push a 22Creedl(less) to its limit to just get close to a .22-243AI, on cruise control w/ the top down. Simply stated: when compared at a baseline case pressure, larger capacity cartridges win all the time, every time...
I get that there are many fans of the Creed(less) but you’ll find that some of the cheerleaders have ‘skin in the game’. Happily, I’m not beholden or constrained by any business venture(s) so I get to use and cheerlead for what works best for me, and me alone.
Haven’t tried RL26 in the .22-243AI, but I suspect it’d beat H1000 in speed. Because, that’s what Alliant powders do! The H1000 is just so forgiving and temp stable, that I don’t bother to mess with a really good thing. Plus, I’m saving my ‘26 for something much more nasty
Again, the AI is GREAT because you can use a plain ol Redding .243AI type S die (with proper bushing) to load for it. And the seater works, as is.” for heavy .224 bullets. Nothing proprietary about the .22-243AI it is 100% ‘open source’ and just plain works a treat!
P.S.
yup RPM is up there, reckon ~325K for a 75 from a 1:8. But an 75 -80 AMAX / target VLD, in that window have proven to handle that stress and still perform great, terminally...
Have fun!

 

[Savageseven]

From my experience, both Varget & 4350 are too ‘fast’ a burn rate for a 75 from a .22-243AI. Anyone with Quickload and a clue will tell ya same. I run H1000 behind a 75, Retumbo behind an 80, and RL22 to fire form...
The reason 4350 works in the Creed(less) is because it’s quite a bit smaller in case capacity. About ~12%, depending on headstamp. Hence, the need for a faster burn powder to push a same weight bullet, from a case with ~12%LESS capacity than a .22-243AI. Basically, ya gotta push a 22Creedl(less) to its limit to just get close to a .22-243AI, on cruise control w/ the top down. Simply stated: when compared at a baseline case pressure, larger capacity cartridges win all the time, every time...
I get that there are many fans of the Creed(less) but you’ll find that some of the cheerleaders have ‘skin in the game’. Happily, I’m not beholden or constrained by any business venture(s) so I get to use and cheerlead for what works best for me, and me alone.
Haven’t tried RL26 in the .22-243AI, but I suspect it’d beat H1000 in speed. Because, that’s what Alliant powders do! The H1000 is just so forgiving and temp stable, that I don’t bother to mess with a really good thing. Plus, I’m saving my ‘26 for something much more nasty
Again, the AI is GREAT because you can use a plain ol Redding .243AI type S die (with proper bushing) to load for it. And the seater works, as is.” for heavy .224 bullets. Nothing proprietary about the .22-243AI it is 100% ‘open source’ and just plain works a treat!
P.S.
yup RPM is up there, reckon ~325K for a 75 from a 1:8. But an 75 -80 AMAX / target VLD, in that window have proven to handle that stress and still perform great, terminally...
Have fun!

So a Redding 243AI die set will work for a 22 cal bullet and seat it with hardly any Runout ?

 

[B23]

So a Redding 243AI die set will work for a 22 cal bullet and seat it with hardly any Runout ?

It'll work fine the only difference is the seating stem will contact the bullet a little further down the nose of the bullet.