.223AI brass test

[TOObuilder]

I was wondering what brand of brass you .223AI shooters have been using? I have been doing load work on my first .223AI and decided to do a brass test. I have been using Nosler brass and have been having good results with accuracy using 52-55gr bullets (12 twist barrel). My fire form load for this brass test was 25.5gr Benchmark/55gr Midsouth NME bullet. My full load was 27gr BM/55gr NME. This load showed no pressure signs and was running right at 3380fps.

To re-size between firings I used a Redding .223AI FL die set up so it was just sizing the neck. The first piece of Nosler brass cracked after firing round eight. I tried another piece of Nosler and this also cracked after round eight. I then tried a new piece of Lake City brass and used the same load and proceedure. I fired this piece of brass 20 times with no cracks. The only thing I noticed was the shoulder appeared slightly wrinkled after round 14. It still chambered and fired fine.

So, I'm curious as to how many rounds you guys have been getting from you .223AI loads. Maybe I should be using a different technique for sizing my brass? Or, maybe its just the Nosler brass? It did feel like the FL die I was using could have been sizing the body down slightly as I could feel a slight drag when pushing the handle down however I feel I was not pushing the shoulder back excessively.

What reccomendations would there be for a neck sizer only? I have heard good comments about the Lee collet neck sizers but not sure if they make one for an AI. Maybe a neck sizer would help extend the life of the Nosler brass?

 

[bozo699]

TOObuilder,
That is case head separation, I would never use a f/l die to neck size as your bound to partially size the body. It looks to me like you must be setting to shoulder back much further then you think. Do you have the tools necessary to measure your head space or the oal of your brass? I have found Nosler brass to be soft like Norma and L/C brass to be harder and much thicker brass. I think if you set your f/l sizer up correctly for a .001 shoulder bump you won't have the separation problem anymore. Also when fireforming are you jamming your bullets so your case isn't slamming back into your bolt?
Best of luck to you.
Wayne.

 

[queen_stick]

A 'wrinkled shoulder" can indicate that you have too much sizing lube on the case when FL sizing. If that's not the cause of the wrinkled shoulder, then I would stop using that brass when it appears.

 

[MarkS]

TOObuilder

+! on what Wayne said. Looks like you are sizing the brass too much, and over working the brass. I am using Lapua and Win brass for my 223AI. I am using Wilson hand dies for seating and neck sizing. and a Redding body die. What you have will work just fine.

Back the your F/L off and size. Try that in your gun with the firing pin out of your bolt. AS you turn the die down you can feel the bolt close better, keep doing that until the bolt closes with eaze. Lock the ring down, you are set. Do a search on "shoulder bump" That is what Wayne and I are talking about.

Mark Schronce

 

[queen_stick]

What Wayne and Mark have posted would explain the wrinkled shoulders as well... sounds like you're bumping the shoulders WAY to much!

 

[TOObuilder]

It sure didn't seem like I was bumping the shoulders. I have a set of Redding comp. shell holders and was measuring with my Hornady head space tool that indexes off the shoulder. Was bumping the shoulder little if any. Used the exact same set up with both pieces of brass.

 

[queen_stick]

that's interesting... What are your exact measurements of a fired case, and after sizing? (base to shoulder, using the hornady gauge)

 

[TOObuilder]

Well, you guys nailed it. I decapped some of my twice fired brass and measured with my Hornady head space tool on my caliper. They measured right at 1.492". (this was with zeroing my digital caliper when it was closed on the gauge) I then ran a piece through the FL die that I had set up last night and got a measurement of 1.482". Thats .010" bump?? What the heck.

Here is how I screwed up. When I resized my brass after fire forming I used the +.010 shell holder and that was giving me about a .002 bump on the shoulder. All seemed fine. It was at the end of the day, after shooting all afternoon that I decided to test the brass. I had put away some of my equipment and when I fired the round and came in to resize I had removed the +.010 SH from my second press. Instead of pulling that out of the cabinet I just took the standard SH out of my second press I use for seating and resized. Thinking back I even remembered that I turned the FL die down a bit because it wasn't contacting the SH. That should have been my first clue!

After the brass failed I was kind of surprised that it happened after 8 rounds so I figured I needed to repeat the test with another piece of brass. So, looks like I was bumping the shoulder at least .010 each time! I learned a big lesson about sizing brass and getting the correct head space set up every time. :-[

 

[bozo699]

Toobuilder,
In this krazy economy I understand we all have to be careful with our money, I am fortunate in that I have two of my children raised and the third will be a senior this year, the house,ranch, and vehicles are paid for so I don't lack much in my reloading room if I want it, I have multiple chambering's of the same cartridges in several different cartridges and I have a different die set for each, I have four 6brx rifles and four separate dies for them, that may sound ridiculous but I have them locked down and everything is marked what rifle and what press, I also have separate shell holders that I leave in the die boxes as there all a little different measurement. I don't like fussing around with the Redding comp shell holders or shims, each rifle has it's own setup, I can remember a time I would have been lucky to afford one die and hopefully had some left over for powder and bullets so I understand that we all can't have two of everything, but if you could get your die set for that rifle and the brass to be used I think things would go better for you. I still check my shoulder measurement each time I reload but it's usually spot on. Out of a box of 50 or 100 pieces of brass there are usually several that aren't up to spec's I use those pieces to check and re set my die with if necessary so I don't screw up a good piece of brass. I don't know what your using your ackley for but I would buy the best brass as I could afford (Lapua ) preferably and stick with it, you won't have to be changing things around all the time, I wish you the best of luck, load safely and shoot straight
Wayne.

 

[queen_stick]

Glad you figured it out what you did wrong, and more importantly, you learned something from your mistake! It's the simple things that are so easy to overlook, but can be can cause all kinds of problems if not triple checked.

I would throw out all of the brass you sized with the wrong shell holder... A weak case could give you a nice shot of gas to the face

 

[bozo699]

What Walt said

 

[Rtheurer]

Wayne & Walt

have you noticed that some cartridges take two or more Firing before the Shoulder need to be bumped at all? I had a buddy...... ( it was me) that set his die up from a peice of factory brass that had never been fired. I was really pushing those shoulders back ALOT on this 308 and had alot of Case seperations like the ones in the picture. I found out later that it took a good two firings of the brass before the brass even needed to be bumped and ONLY THEN did I need to set my FL die up to bump the shoulder. I swithced Gunsmiths since then and my new guy gives me a small chunk of the barrel with the reamer run into it so Now I can use that for alot of stuff including setting up my FL or Body dies.
Still learnin just like the rest of ya
RT

 

[bozo699]

RT,
Absolutely, depends on the cartridge and how hot your running it, a really mild load and it could take three or four firings to get a real print of the chamber, a hot load maybe the first firing. New brass I run it through a mandrel die to make sure the neck is expanded and round next I do a complete work up on the brass, depending on what the rifle is used for but my competition rifles I invite friends down and let them shoot the new stuff up for me, it is by far more accurate then anything there use to so they have a blast and I get my new brass fireformed,
I then do whatever final steps that needs done to the brass,including using a body die to bump the shoulders about a thou. partial neck size the neck, I shoot all of these over flags and separate spotters and fowlers from the cases I will keep for my record rounds, third firing I am ready for the 1000 yard line until brass is shot out, and yes I am still learning on a daily basis, most of the time by old timers,or long time shooters but sometimes from a new poster that has just begun in the shooting sport, I find most people eventually have something to offer (myself excluded of course)
Wayne.

 

[jwv2001]

Get the Lee .223 collet die to size the necks on your AI.

 

[Rtheurer]

Not to hyjack this thread but I noticed that you run your virgin brass over an Expender mandrel. I also do that for the same reasons. I Have used imperial Wax most of the time but have tried powdered Graphite with mixed results. What I would like to do is expand the necks and shoot. run them through the neck die , load them and shoot them. ( not Benchrest) With the sizing wax I need to clean the lube out of the necks or face the fact that powder will bridge and hang up in the necks. another step and I dont like it. With New Virgin brass without running a bore brush inside the graphite wont stick to the slippery brass. How do you get around this issue if you do anything diffrent?

I have picked alot of good infoo up from the benchrest crowd.... some of it applies to my type of shooting some does not. But I always feel like I have learned something even if I use it or not. Guess thats why I get out of bed in the mornin.


RT

 

[TOObuilder]

Fortunately there were only the three pieces of brass that I formed this way. Two Nosler and one LC. My 98 pieces of Nosler fire formed brass was sized with the FL die and the +.010 shell holder. This bumped the shoulder very little, maybe .001". It was when I decided to do the brass test that I screwed up and went back to the standard shell holder and I feel this is what messed me up.

Will the standard Lee .223 Rem. collet die work? The reason I ask is that I tried to neck size a fire formed piece with my Redding .223 neck sizer and it did not work. It seemed to push on the body right at the body/shoulder junction and changed the shape of the shoulder.

I'm not a benchrest competitor however I do shoot allot of paper getting ready for varmint shooting. Most of the fun is working up a good load for a new barrel and learning how to do it safely and correctly. Much of that is learned right here so I hope that my screw up can help others learn so it doesn't happen to them.

 

[acloco]

Use a small cap loaded with Danzac/WS2 or HBN when you want to neck size. I use a brush that has been rolled in the powder as well.

I do not own one, but have seen posts of many people using the standard 223 Lee collet die to neck size 223 AI brass.

Of note, you don't have to size much of the neck with a full length die. 2/3rd's of the neck is about perfect....thereby avoiding some of the sizing fun that you have been having.

 

[bozo699]

Use a small cap loaded with Danzac/WS2 or HBN when you want to neck size. I use a brush that has been rolled in the powder as well.

I do not own one, but have seen posts of many people using the standard 223 Lee collet die to neck size 223 AI brass.

Of note, you don't have to size much of the neck with a full length die. 2/3rd's of the neck is about perfect....thereby avoiding some of the sizing fun that you have been having.

That's fine and dandy but you will end up resizing the body partly which is not a good idea. F/L dies were designed to full length size not neck size.
Wayne.

 

[queen_stick]

Wayne & Walt

have you noticed that some cartridges take two or more Firing before the Shoulder need to be bumped at all? I had a buddy...... ( it was me) that set his die up from a peice of factory brass that had never been fired. I was really pushing those shoulders back ALOT on this 308 and had alot of Case seperations like the ones in the picture. I found out later that it took a good two firings of the brass before the brass even needed to be bumped and ONLY THEN did I need to set my FL die up to bump the shoulder. I swithced Gunsmiths since then and my new guy gives me a small chunk of the barrel with the reamer run into it so Now I can use that for alot of stuff including setting up my FL or Body dies.
Still learnin just like the rest of ya
RT

Barrel/chamber stubs are nice... I wish I had one for each my chambers. I don't have any!

I started out out neck-sizing only with my Wilson neck sizer. When it go to the point where some brass fit the chamber fine and others were tight, it got old trying to keep track of which was which. I FL size every time now, and I've had a lot less problems with extraction. I use a max load for 1K BR competition, so my brass takes a beating. When my brass was new, I could shoot it 2 or 3 times before it got tight in the chamber, and required a FL size/shoulder bump. Now, I have to FL size each time, for my brass that's about 8x fired, or it's tight after the first firing (after FL sizing it).

What I learned from that experience... I'll ALWAYS fl size for all of my future loadings (in all of my guns/chambers). Even if the brass is 1x fired, it's getting bumped/bodied! That's what I prefer to do, but it's not always necessary. There are people using neck dies only, and they can get 30 firings on their brass without ever fl sizing. Running a light load will allow you to do that!

edit: I agree with Wayne about using proper dies - that's what I would do! I can see how neck sizing the top 2/3 of the neck with a standard 223 collet die would work though...

 

[Ackman]

Use a necksizer for necksizing, not the FL die. I use graphite to determine die setting. A Speer plastic bullet box with lead shot and graphite mixed together. Stick the caseneck into that before setting the die. Graphite pushed down the neck shows exactly how far it's being sized. The AI brass only gets necksized.......these are loaded at or near top-end because that's where Ackley cartridges are most accurate.