223 Wylde Match Load

[J Nehring]

I am trying to develop a target load with top accuracy at 200yds+ out of a Rock River Arms Varminter A4 upper (24" stainless bull barrel, 1:8 twist, gas impingement). Timney trigger, titanium firing pin, Magpul PRS stock, DPMS Panther grip, Atlas bipod, AccuShot monopod, Nightforce SHV 5-20x56, Nightforce Ultra UniMount, etc. Now, I'm no world class shooter by any means but I have yet to tune the perfect load for this rifle. Current load produces .75" - 1.5" size groups at 200yds (1.25" average group). I can not seem to get this load to produce consistent groups under 1" at 200yds. Lapua Match 223 brass - primer pockets uniformed, flash holes uniformed, neck turned to .013" neck wall thickness, Redding Competition neck sizer w/ titanium bushing (sized neck = .219" ID), Redding body sizer: .002" shoulder set back (half thou headspace variation) used with Redding Comp .008" shell holder, trimmed to 1.750", lot of 200 cases are sorted by weight into batches of 50. Bullets are Hornady Match BTHP 75gr and HBN plated. Primers are CCI BR4 hand seated with K&M primer tool w/ dial indicator (rezeroed for each case/primer and seated to +.002"). Hodgdon Varget powder weighed to 24.0gr on RCBS Chargemaster 1500. Bullets seated to COAL: 2.260" w/ Redding Comp Seater. I have tried various loads using Alliant Reloader 15 with very similar results and velocities. Best SD's I've gotten so far with any load is about 10. Any advice on this would be great. I am really starting to lean towards bullet weight not being optimal (perhaps a little heavy for my twist rate) and have a box of MK 69gr to possibly try.

 

[watercam]

Your SD is pretty good for that cartridge and rifle. Try some Sierra and/or Berger bullets as well, play with 1) powder charges (you are not at max yet but only you can judge function with as AR), 2) seating depth - test jump from .040" and closer in .005" increments, 3) primers. I have no idea how Rock River's barrels are. Custom barrels will give you optimum results. If all else fails that is what I would try next.

 

[Joe Wade]

+1 on testing Sierra and Berger bullets. 77grain Sierra bullets was the standard for 200 yard High Power.
Recommend testing H4895 powder, works very well in the .223.
You stated your primers are seated +.002".
Recommend seating primers .005"-.006" below case head. Primer seating depth needs to be firm to the bottom of the pocket without smashing the cup too flat, can really help accuracy.

Good luck

 

[Albany Mountain]

You really are doing fine for shooting 3/4 MOA out of that configuration with mag length loading. You could possibly squeeze it down by loading SMK or Berger 80 gr or heavier bullets with a longer COAL. Shooting under 1" at 200 yards would be a feat for what you are using and difficult even with what I suggested. Don't wear out a good barrel trying to make it a benchrest gun. And if you are shooting 1.25 at 200 yards, you have nothing to complain about.

 

[mac86951]

IME a seating depth of 2.260 (magazine) combined with wylde chamber causes a large jump to the lands. Mine is 0.190 jump (2.260 vs 2.450). Loaded concentricity is key for me; I'm sorting about half way up the ogive as my Redding, Forster, RCBS, and Wilson inline all have the occasional crooked bullet, probably due from seating so far into the case without neck thickness prep. I haven't learned how to eliminate it from my process yet; but wow what a difference when I sorted. I choose under 0.005 TIR as referenced from the case body exterior.

Likewise on bullet selection, I have a barrel that likes Sierra. Friend has one that likes Hornady; and yet another range friend has one that needs Nosler. Berger 77OTM does well for all of us as long as we're not buying lunch later. (It is an AR after all, so it's hungry too).

Many powders work well; H4895, N140, Varget, 4320, ARComp, and even (shhhh TAC). Given so many potential combinations; pick the bullet, which it sounds like you have, pick a primer and then try a powder or two. You'll find an accuracy load; and you can choose the powder based on velocity at the accuracy node if need be.

Finally:
Have you done a magazine feeding test (assuming that is how you are shooting)? Make a few dummy rounds and cycle them through the mag and chamber. Inspect afterward; sometimes the feed up the ramp causes damage to the bullet.

-Mac

 

[DocBII]

J,

I have the same rifle, I shoot 80s and 69s out of it. 80's will shoot 1/4 MOA to 1k, 69s to 800.

Berger, Sierra, and JLK 80s all worked well. Used either WSR or CCI #41 with either N550 or PP 2000 MR. COL is 2.555", work up to best accuracy with charge, mine was 26.3 with either powder.

Sierra 69s worked best with N-140, 2.260" COL, same primers, work up to 24.0 gr.

HTH,
DocBII

 

[SheepDog]

Are you using a 223/556 or a Wylde body die?
The length, shoulder angle, neck length, and body taper of the Wylde chamber is very different than the 223 or 556 chambers.
If you are not using custom dies made from you fired cases you are doing a remarkable job with your accuracy.

 

[J Nehring]

I should have mentioned that those groups and SD's all came from virgin brass. I will be resizing them for next series of tests. My body die is for 223 Rem and probably should be custom made for my chamber for optimal results, but this is what I have to work with for the time being. As a side note: i have in the past for this rifle, been neck-sizing only with the same results but have found that there is too much headspace variation for my likings (+/- .0015). To better elaborate on the primer seating: using a K&M hand primer w/ dial indicator, gauge is zeroed for each shell and primer (to bottom of primer pocket), primers are seated to bottom plus additional .002". I am working with mag length loads (Magpul 10rd magazine). Bullet tip trimmer & die should arrive in the mail any day now and will be used for next batch of test ammo. Loading COAL to 2.260 (mag length) puts me at .090" from the rifling. I will definitely pick up some Berger & Sierra MK's to try. I'm thinking the Berger 73gr BT's would be best considering the amount of bullet jump I have to work with (too much for VLD's). So far, I have only worked with the 75gr Match HPBT due to the fact that I have an abundance of them and am mostly concerned with finding the best primer & powder combination that will produce the best SD's and then, afterwards, choose the bullet that produces the best groups. Bullet seating depths would be adjusted for optimal group sizes after the powder and charge weight have been chosen. Maybe this isn't the best way to go about finding a magic load but any input on that would be greatly considered. Ps: I will inspect chambered rounds next range session for bullet damage from feed ramp.

 

[J Nehring]

(Chamber and barrel are match 223 Wylde)

 

[J Nehring]

Are you using a 223/556 or a Wylde body die?
The length, shoulder angle, neck length, and body taper of the Wylde chamber is very different than the 223 or 556 chambers.
If you are not using custom dies made from you fired cases you are doing a remarkable job with your accuracy.

223/556 Redding body die, very noteworthy suggestion tho about the custom die. I will look into that...

 

[J Nehring]

J,

I have the same rifle, I shoot 80s and 69s out of it. 80's will shoot 1/4 MOA to 1k, 69s to 800.

Berger, Sierra, and JLK 80s all worked well. Used either WSR or CCI #41 with either N550 or PP 2000 MR. COL is 2.555", work up to best accuracy with charge, mine was 26.3 with either powder.

Sierra 69s worked best with N-140, 2.260" COL, same primers, work up to 24.0 gr.

HTH,
DocBII

Doc,
Thank you for your input, and glad to hear about shooter out there with the same set-up. The Sierra 69gr MK are very next on my list. I have quite a few different VV powders in my cabinet and have seen various recommendations on VV powders (140, 540, 550, etc). Coming from somebody with the same barrel, however, I am more prone to trying the N-140. What has your experience been with CCI BR4 primers, or haven't you tried them? Only reason I ask is that I assume they should deliver good consistency considering they are benchrest primers. I had poor results (SD's) in the past with Winchester primers (WLR) in my 308 which is what shunned me away from trying them again.

 

[J Nehring]

Man

IME a seating depth of 2.260 (magazine) combined with wylde chamber causes a large jump to the lands. Mine is 0.190 jump (2.260 vs 2.450). Loaded concentricity is key for me; I'm sorting about half way up the ogive as my Redding, Forster, RCBS, and Wilson inline all have the occasional crooked bullet, probably due from seating so far into the case without neck thickness prep. I haven't learned how to eliminate it from my process yet; but wow what a difference when I sorted. I choose under 0.005 TIR as referenced from the case body exterior.

Likewise on bullet selection, I have a barrel that likes Sierra. Friend has one that likes Hornady; and yet another range friend has one that needs Nosler. Berger 77OTM does well for all of us as long as we're not buying lunch later. (It is an AR after all, so it's hungry too).

Many powders work well; H4895, N140, Varget, 4320, ARComp, and even (shhhh TAC). Given so many potential combinations; pick the bullet, which it sounds like you have, pick a primer and then try a powder or two. You'll find an accuracy load; and you can choose the powder based on velocity at the accuracy node if need be.

Finally:
Have you done a magazine feeding test (assuming that is how you are shooting)? Make a few dummy rounds and cycle them through the mag and chamber. Inspect afterward; sometimes the feed up the ramp causes damage to the bullet.

-Mac

Mac,
Thank you for your valuable input. I have not checked run-out on these loads yet since I've been watching for low SD's. When I do check them, my spec is generally 0.001" TIR measured both at the neck and the ogive. Anything over that goes to my NECO cartridge alignment tool for tweaking and then gets remeasured until in spec. I am not married to any certain brand of bullet, so I'm open for what works best. I will certainly give the Berger and SMK a try next. I have some SMK 69 and will have to pick up a box of Berger (most likely 73gr BT since I have a large jump to make and VLD's typically don't agree with that). I have most of these powders you suggested sitting on my bed shelf. Seems a lot of people are steering me towards the N-140, maybe I'll give that a try next with 69 SMK. Also, have not checked for bullet damage from feed ramp (I will check into that).

 

[ebb]

As stated above H4895 works very good with bullets in that weight range.

 

[J Nehring]

As stated above H4895 works very good with bullets in that weight range.

Ebb,

Seems like there are enough suggestions on this topic leaning towards the use of H4895. I am going to use this powder next put up against N-140 and compare against previous tested powders. Thanks for your advice.

 

[ebb]

I had always used Win 748 with my AR15 loads with 69 grain SMKs. My friend that is a benchrest shooter helped me develop a load for a 223 bolt action with 73 grain Bergers and used that powder and it shoots pretty good considering it doesn't have a premium barrel.

 

[ashiha]

J Nehring, I hope you don't mind, but I have a couple questions for those in this thread since they are related.

1. At what point would you just say that you've reached the limits of the barrel/gun?
It seems like testing can go on FOREVER if allowed to with testing different brass, primers, powders, bullets, seating depths, etc.

2. Similarly to the above question, how many powders/primers/bullets can you justify testing?
I like to buy powders in bulk and can't reasonably buy 8lb jugs of a bunch of different types. It seems to be overly difficult for me to read "try powder X" when I have so much of something else. What guidelines do most of you go by regarding this?

 

[eric n]

What do your groups look like? Horizontal, vertical, round? What is the wind doing? What do your 100 yd groups look like? Do you have experience shooting with a monopod?
I had a predator pursuit that shot about what yours does. I never could get the 75 bthp to shoot as well as other bullets. Berger 70vld, 69 smk, and 75 amax shot better then hornadys with the nod to 75amax.
Seating depth tune is a big deal, since you are at mag length, try tuning by shortening your cbto a few thou at a time.
What size bushing are you using for your necks? A lot of 223s shoot well with .003 "neck tension". A bushing .003 under your loaded round neck dia.
Good luck with it!

 

[J Nehring]

What do your groups look like? Horizontal, vertical, round? What is the wind doing? What do your 100 yd groups look like? Do you have experience shooting with a monopod?
I had a predator pursuit that shot about what yours does. I never could get the 75 bthp to shoot as well as other bullets. Berger 70vld, 69 smk, and 75 amax shot better then hornadys with the nod to 75amax.
Seating depth tune is a big deal, since you are at mag length, try tuning by shortening your cbto a few thou at a time.
What size bushing are you using for your necks? A lot of 223s shoot well with .003 "neck tension". A bushing .003 under your loaded round neck dia.
Good luck with it!

Eric,
I have gotten very well acquainted with my monopods (buttstock mounted), I have them on both of my AR target rifles and use them regularly in conjunction with Atlas bipod for the last 3 years. Shooting position (for testing) is always sitting at a bench at my private gun club. Groups are various since I am playing around with various loads (from start load to Max load in .5 gr increments). I will try to upload my targets and reports on RL15 & Varget powders. 100yd groups are almost too small for testing, although could easily be done - the groups sizes just wouldn't be as obvious as they are at 200. My goal with this configuration is too fine a load that will consistently produce 1/4MOA. So far, I'm down to 3/8 - 1/2MOA w/o using a tuned load (24.0gr Varget, Hornady 75gr BTHP, Lapua Brass and CCI BR4 [2,750fps]). Off the top of my head, I don't remember by bushing size. My sized necks are .219" (.005" neck tension).

 

[SheepDog]

The Wylde chamber is very different than the 223/556 chamber. The lengths are different and the shoulder angle is different. The Wylde chamber is fatter and shorter than the 223/556. That is why I say you need a custom die.
Compared to the 223/556 you are shooting a 223 in an "Improved" chamber.

 

[eric n]

Try .2g powder increments.
1/4 Moa is a lot to ask from a factory gun. If you are doing it at 100, conditions and fundamentals are most likely getting you at 200.