223 to 20VT forming **PICS**

[ab_bentley]

I have been over this a few times on other boards but I thought someone here might find it usefull.

1: LC 223
2: 221FB FL die
3: 17M4 #1 die
4: Rough trimmed and expanded
5: Trimmed to proper length 1.399"
6: Neck turned to .0115" thickness

I use three dies to form my brass, 221 Fireball Full length from Redding, 17M4 #1 Form die from Redding, and a 17 Fireball Type S Neck die also from Redding. These dies can also form pretty much any case on the .378" case head (223/204 case) at least to the fire forming stage. Now as you can see I don't trim the 223 case until the 4 step. This is due to the fact you will crush cases if the 223 is trimmed into the shoulder or body. The neck acts like a funnel and aids in the sizing of the brass and you're able to do it in one pass from the 221FB FL die. Next is the important part, the 20VT FL die or other die with the same dimensions as the 20VT (shortened 204R FL die, shortened 20TAC die, ect) needs to set to the proper headspace and if done right it will form the case to 99% ,foregoing the need to fire form. I use the 17 Mach 4 #1 Form die as the internal dimensions are perfect for the 20VT and other various 20cal cartridges. It sizes the shoulders .002” and adds .004” tension on the neck of the case. The next step is to trim the case. I use a Mini Chop saw from Harbor Freight (Item # 42307) with an attachment made by a good friend that uses the Lee Lock Stud and proper Lee shell holder.

Once I have the cases trimmed I expand using the KM Neck Expander. From there I complete final trim on the L.E. Wilson/ Sinclair trimmer (1.400”). Then I neck turn the cases on the KM Neck Turner (using all carbide parts, very important when turning large amounts of cases) to .0115” for a loaded round neck diameter of .227” ( I use a .232” No Turn Chamber). The last step is a very important one, annealing. These cases have been through a vast amount of forming and work hardening and needs to be annealed for safe firing and long life. If you have any other questions please ask. Adam

 

[MQ1]

Adam,

Every time I see this post I have to resist selling my tv and other useless appliances.

MQ1

 

[ab_bentley]

I did the same thing for my 20 VT. Bought the Redding forming/trim die, RCBS 20 cal inside neck reamer/outside neck turner combo (great product BTW) and formed/annealed about 100 cases before I decided that, even though 221 fireball brass is much more expensive than once fired 223 brass, the time and effort to form from 223 just wasn't worth it.

I started forming them from 223 because 221 FB brass was about $50 per 100 when I built my rifle. Now it's under $40 per 100 and getting cheaper if you look in the right places. Just bought my last new 100 pieces for $37 and also just got 140 once fired pieces for $40 shipped. I think the gradually growing popularity of the 20 VT and a bit of interest coming back to the 221 FB itself is bringing the cost of brass down a bit.

I even went as far as to QUIT turning my necks because my rifle is so accurate and forgiving with 21.3 gr of Ramshot Xterminator using the 34gr MidSouth bullets it doesn't make enough of a difference. I don't allow my barrel to cool at all between shots when shooting groups to mimick shooting gophers and still get 1/2" 10 shot groups from a bipod and rear bag at 100 yards with UN-turned necks. The 20 VT is very forgiving : )

I know all to well just how tedious it is to make one of those 20 VT gems from 223. I love shooting my gophers and prairie dogs with such an accurate, light recoiling round...but not that much : ) LOL!

Take care : )

I do this because the Rem 221FB/ 17FB brass I buy seems to be such a crappy product. I had bought 1000 pieces of 221FB brass about two years ago and the work I had put into it to make shootable, not a full prep but shootable was so close to the brass made from 223 I made up mind then that never again would I buy another piece of 221/17 fireball brass. Split necks, shallow primer pockets, short cases, bad annealing, I really hate that brass. Right now I make 20VT right at $0.07 (really 6.8 cents) per round. I buy 1000 pieces of LC brass for 145$ shipped. Then if you want to add in the time it takes to make 100 cases about 1hr.($7.25/ hr Min. Wage). .07$ x 100= 7$ + 7.25$ = 14.25$. So for 14.25$ and I have a piece of brass that surpasses the POS stuff Remington lets out of it's factory. My brass is all 1.4" long with even .227" necks and 99% formed, also it can withstand pressures the 221FB stuff couldn't even think of. I can hit 4000fps with a 34gr bullet and AA2200 powder. Even if I bought all of the tools to form the brass I would make up the cost with the first 500rds. Adam

 

[BigDMT]

If you'll be happy to make me cases for minimum wage rates, I'll buy all the brass you can send my way : ) LOL! Just kidding. I understand. You most definitely have a more efficient way of making the brass than I do because I couldn't dream to full size, trim, de-burr, and chamfer 100 pieces even when starting with 221 FB brass!!! Then if I turn the necks, that's way more time. That's absolutely amazing that you can form from 223 faster than I can from 221 FB.

You are definitely right on the quality of Remington brass. It's crap. The necks are horrible. I won't use 17 FB brass because necks get way too thin and split easily. Never had problems with 221 FB necks though. But like I said, my rifle is so forgiving, that it doesn't seem to matter. Maybe it's the 20 VT chambering, maybe it's the Savage action with the McGowen barrel. Whatever it is, I have yet to test a load that puts a 5 shot group with any primer/powder combo outside 1" @ 100 yards. Most are sub 1/2" groups. Turned necks or not. Fire-formed or not. None of it matters. It's always accurate.
If I stopped at 3 shot groups from a cold bore, my RamShot load will put them in the .1's to .2's depending on coffee intake that morning : )


I could push the 34 gr bullet at high velocity I suppose, but that's not why I built a 20 VarTarg. Built it for lower recoil to "watch more of the action" in the scope. Higher velocity=higher pressure=more recoil. I have a 204 Ruger using the same bullet that gives me the extra velocity when I want it. And also have a 20 Tactical in the works for cheaper reloading costs.

I only push the 34 gr bullet from my 20 VT at about 3450 fps from my 22" McGowen Bull barrel. I like my varmint rifle barrels short to keep the rifles nice and handy and not so "front heavy" with the large contour barrels. Still blows the hell out of gophers and prairie dogs out to 300 yards and gives me outstanding barrel life and really low recoil.

I actually only push the 34 gr bullet in my .204 Ruger at 3715 fps from a 22" barrel as well. Also for barrel life reasons. But even at a "slow for caliber" 3715 fps, it still gives me gopher kills that leave me searching for any sign of remains. Complete disintegration : ) The 20 VT doesn't quite have that level of devastation at 3450 fps, but it comes close so I'm happy.

It's all a ton of fun any way you look at it : ) Hope you enjoy your 20 VT as much as I do : )

Take care

 

[DogBuster]

I formed some 223 to 20 VT a few yrs ago....

I'm still hoping for Lapua 221 FB brass to show up..

 

[ab_bentley]

I think some might find this handy again.

Adam

 

[ab_bentley]

http://www.saubier.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9938

Adam

 

[pacificman]

Thanks for the post!...Seems by the time I get my barrel I will know enough to be dangerous with the 20VT... ;D