223 Remington 90 VLD in Bolt Gun

[shoot4fun]

Rifle:
R700 custom, bushed bolt, Sako extractor, Krieger 6.5 twist finished at 26"
Brass:
I have Lapua & Hornady (once fired) that both weight very close to each other and necks are cleaned up.
Bullet:
90 grain VLD
Powder:
Varget (currently), Shooter's World Precision, Alliant 2000MR, CFE223
Primer:
CCI400 and RP 7 /12 ( I didn't include CCI450 as I have never seen it deliver low SD/ES in my guns)
I currently am able to shoot 25.5 Varget in my 7.7 twist gun with 2,980 FPS velocity. This is with the 80 grain VLD.
WARNING: Don't go here without some careful workup and testing!
I have, so far, been unable to get within what I think is reasonable proximity velocity comparing the 80 and 90 VLD loads. I seem to hit pressure much faster in the 6.5 twist even though I read credible evidence that twist rate does not necessarily cause higher pressures.
Are you loading 223/90 VLD combination currently? What are you findings on velocity, accuracy and pressure?

 

[Bronco302]

Have shot the Berger 90 gr. VLD in F-Class, not pushing them as fast as you.
Rem. 700, 28" 7 twist Bartlein barrel specifically throated for the 90 gr. VLD.
Using 23.9 gr. of 2520 in Winchester brass, Rem. SR benchrest primer for 2810 fps.
Could go a little faster but SD's went up so went with slower but more accurate. Have loaded some brass 5 times and still have snug primer pockets. Joy to shoot have actually taken it PD hunting and wrecked their day.

 

[Ned Ludd]

If you do a search using the query "90 VLD", you will find more information here on what F-TR shooters have been doing with the 90s over the last 5-6 years than you will likely be willing to read.

Rather than try to reproduce the content of numerous posts over that time on how to get the 90s to shoot, my observation in this case would be that you might have potentially sub-optimal features in your setup for shooting the 90s. For example, barrel twist rates faster than 7.0-twist have a well-characterized tendency to cause jacket failures in 0.218" bore barrels, especially those of around 30" length such as many F-TR shooters use. Along the same line, I'm hoping the 2980 fps velocity you mentioned is for the 80 gr bullet, not the 90 VLD, but I can't tell for sure the way your post was written. Running the 90s at that velocity from a 26" barrel would be dangerously unsafe, as would using charge weights of 25.5 gr Varget in Lapua brass. Typical max velocities out of 30"-barreled rifles with Varget or H4895 are in the 2825 to 2850 fps range. Anything more than that tends to kill the primer pockets of Lapua .223 brass in one or two firings and/or cause jacket failures. Although it is tempting to try, it is simply not worth the potential problems trying to push the 90 VLDs much past the 2850 fps mark. Shooters with 22BRs or 22-250s having the boiler room to generate much higher velocities than the smaller .223 Rem cartridge have made similar observations. The advantages of those larger cartridges simply don't seem to be usable to a large extent with the 90s.

In addition to poor brass life, jacket failure may also be associated with velocities in excess of ~2850 fps, especially in longer (30") barrels, and barrel with the tighter 0.218" bare as I mentioned previously. There are a number of factors that may all potentially contribute, including velocity, barrel length, twist rate, and bore diameter. The one solution that has seemed to be most effective at combatting this issue is using a 0.219", rather than 0.218", bore diameter. Other possible solutions include using a twist rate of no faster than 7.0, barrels of shorter length than 28"-30", and keeping the velocity below the 2800 fps mark. However, they vary somewhat with regard to effectiveness in different people's hands. The 0.219" bore seems to be the best overall solution to mitigate jacket failures with the 88-90 gr 0.224" bullets. It may be that your 6.5-twist barrel has a tighter bore than does the other barrel, hence the higher pressures. However, I wouldn't completely rule out at least some contribution from the twist rate.

In terms of comparing the 80 gr and 90 gr bullets, there seem to be a lot of things you can get away shooting the 80s that will sooner or later create problems with the 90s. The 90s just don't seem to tolerate being pushed hard nearly as well as the 80s, as many people shooting heavy 0.224" bullets out of larger cartridges like the 22-250 and 22 BR have found. I suspect much of that has to do with the much longer bearing surface of the 90s. If you try to push the 90s too hard, it's usually a matter of "when", rather than "if" jacket failure will occur.

 

[shoot4fun]

Have shot the Berger 90 gr. VLD in F-Class, not pushing them as fast as you.
Rem. 700, 28" 7 twist Bartlein barrel specifically throated for the 90 gr. VLD.
Using 23.9 gr. of 2520 in Winchester brass, Rem. SR benchrest primer for 2810 fps.
Could go a little faster but SD's went up so went with slower but more accurate. Have loaded some brass 5 times and still have snug primer pockets. Joy to shoot have actually taken it PD hunting and wrecked their day.

My 2,980 is with an 80 VLD. I get no where near that with the 90VLD. Both barrels are 26" length and both Krieger.

 

[shoot4fun]

If you do a search using the query "90 VLD", you will find more information here on what F-TR shooters have been doing with the 90s over the last 5-6 years than you will likely be willing to read.

Rather than try to reproduce the content of numerous posts over that time on how to get the 90s to shoot, my observation in this case would be that you might have potentially sub-optimal features in your setup for shooting the 90s. For example, barrel twist rates faster than 7.0-twist have a well-characterized tendency to cause jacket failures in 0.218" bore barrels, especially those of around 30" length such as many F-TR shooters use. Along the same line, I'm hoping the 2980 fps velocity you mentioned is for the 80 gr bullet, not the 90 VLD, but I can't tell for sure the way your post was written. Running the 90s at that velocity from a 26" barrel would be dangerously unsafe, as would using charge weights of 25.5 gr Varget in Lapua brass. Typical max velocities out of 30"-barreled rifles with Varget or H4895 are in the 2825 to 2850 fps range. Anything more than that tends to kill the primer pockets of Lapua .223 brass in one or two firings and/or cause jacket failures. Although it is tempting to try, it is simply not worth the potential problems trying to push the 90 VLDs much past the 2850 fps mark. Shooters with 22BRs or 22-250s having the boiler room to generate much higher velocities than the smaller .223 Rem cartridge have made similar observations. The advantages of those larger cartridges simply don't seem to be usable to a large extent with the 90s.

In addition to poor brass life, jacket failure may also be associated with velocities in excess of ~2850 fps, especially in longer (30") barrels, and barrel with the tighter 0.218" bare as I mentioned previously. There are a number of factors that may all potentially contribute, including velocity, barrel length, twist rate, and bore diameter. The one solution that has seemed to be most effective at combatting this issue is using a 0.219", rather than 0.218", bore diameter. Other possible solutions include using a twist rate of no faster than 7.0, barrels of shorter length than 28"-30", and keeping the velocity below the 2800 fps mark. However, they vary somewhat with regard to effectiveness in different people's hands. The 0.219" bore seems to be the best overall solution to mitigate jacket failures with the 88-90 gr 0.224" bullets. It may be that your 6.5-twist barrel has a tighter bore than does the other barrel, hence the higher pressures. However, I wouldn't completely rule out at least some contribution from the twist rate.

In terms of comparing the 80 gr and 90 gr bullets, there seem to be a lot of things you can get away shooting the 80s that will sooner or later create problems with the 90s. The 90s just don't seem to tolerate being pushed hard nearly as well as the 80s, as many people shooting heavy 0.224" bullets out of larger cartridges like the 22-250 and 22 BR have found. I suspect much of that has to do with the much longer bearing surface of the 90s. If you try to push the 90s too hard, it's usually a matter of "when", rather than "if" jacket failure will occur.

For starters, I DON"T care what F-Class guys are doing as they normally shoot much longer barrels and drive bullets to insane levels. I've read many posts by F-Class shooters, especially on the 308, where they boast incredible speeds with very heavy bullets and 32" barrels with powder charges I find to be very abnormal.
The 2,980 is with an 80VLD in a different twist barrel of same length.
I use Hornady because I have a great amount of it, it is very consistent and was very inexpensive (in my case free) and I don't have nightmares when I throw it away after two or three firings. It also has virtually the same weight and volume as my Lapua brass. I have had zero issues with this 6.5 twist barrel blowing up bullets but have only tried the 90VLD, 90SMK and 85.5 Hybrid (no 80's at all).
I do not intend to, nor is this thread to discuss, shooting 90's in a 22-250 or anything other than 223 Remington and I am familiar with what causes jacket failures so need no sermon on that.
I am here simply for what I asked; more suggestions for loading my 6.5 twist 223 with the 90 grain bullets that will help me achieve acceptable accuracy/velocity combinations.
But I really do appreciate your input and concerns.

 

[Ned Ludd]

For starters, I DON"T care what F-Class guys are doing as they normally shoot much longer barrels and drive bullets to insane levels. I've read many posts by F-Class shooters, especially on the 308, where they boast incredible speeds with very heavy bullets and 32" barrels with powder charges I find to be very abnormal.
The 2,980 is with an 80VLD in a different twist barrel of same length.
I use Hornady because I have a great amount of it, it is very consistent and was very inexpensive (in my case free) and I don't have nightmares when I throw it away after two or three firings. It also has virtually the same weight and volume as my Lapua brass. I have had zero issues with this 6.5 twist barrel blowing up bullets but have only tried the 90VLD, 90SMK and 85.5 Hybrid (no 80's at all).
I do not intend to, nor is this thread to discuss, shooting 90's in a 22-250 or anything other than 223 Remington and I am familiar with what causes jacket failures so need no sermon on that.
I am here simply for what I asked; more suggestions for loading my 6.5 twist 223 with the 90 grain bullets that will help me achieve acceptable accuracy/velocity combinations.
But I really do appreciate your input and concerns.

OK. Good luck with that.

 

[CharlieNC]

I have tried several powders and for me 25.5+/- of CFE has provided the best accuracy. In a 6.8 twist 30in barrel it's 2775fps. Shoots great out to 600yd, which is why I rebarreled in order to jump from the 80.5 which was very accurate at 300yd, but gave up too many points at longer distances.

 

[shoot4fun]

I have tried several powders and for me 25.5+/- of CFE has provided the best accuracy. In a 6.8 twist 30in barrel it's 2775fps. Shoots great out to 600yd, which is why I rebarreled in order to jump from the 80.5 which was very accurate at 300yd, but gave up too many points at longer distances.

Okay, so maybe I am getting about all I will out of my load. My barrel is 26".
Currently load 24 grains Varget, CCI400, 90 VLD is giving 2,728 FPS. SD is 14.4
When last I tried the 85.5 Hybrid, 25.2 Varget, CCI400 it was making 2,862FPS with 5.8 SD.
I don't like that 14.4SD with the 90VLD load but, surprisingly, it shows very good accuracy all the way out to 1,000 yards.
I have some test loads loaded with CFE223 and, hopefully, I'll get that done soon.
Good info and much appreciated .

 

[paperpuncher]

Aliant 2000 mr will get you speed at least it did for me. I could not get the level accuracy I wanted with it but the velocity was surprising

 

[shoot4fun]

Aliant 2000 mr will get you speed at least it did for me. I could not get the level accuracy I wanted with it but the velocity was surprising

I did load the 80VLD with 2000MR for a while. Same result as you; easy to get velocity. Thing was the powder is, in my experience, very sensitive to small changes in temperature and humidity. The node was small and those little changes easily knocked it out of the good node.

 

[Jdne5b]

Chasing ES\SD is frustrating in 223. Pick the best group on target and go wear the barrel out.

Fwiw.. my load is 24.2gr Varget in Starline 5.56 brass for a 90vld. Although I jam them .008 (I hate jamming but that's where they want to shoot for me).

Fwiw2.. CFE223 and PP2000mr are virtually identical for me also. Too temp sensitive but killer velocity.

 

[CharlieNC]

I read a lot that CFE is too temp sensitive, but shooting it in Fclass for five years no indications of problems have arisen. And this is 45deg spring through 100deg summer. Maybe because it gives wider nodes than others I have tried, like Varget.

 

[shoot4fun]

Chasing ES\SD is frustrating in 223. Pick the best group on target and go wear the barrel out.

Fwiw.. my load is 24.2gr Varget in Starline 5.56 brass for a 90vld. Although I jam them .008 (I hate jamming but that's where they want to shoot for me).

Fwiw2.. CFE223 and PP2000mr are virtually identical for me also. Too temp sensitive but killer velocity.

So your Starline is stamped 5.56? If so I would think slightly less volume than Lapua?
If I were shooting this rifle in F-Class I would surely have done it with 30" finish length but in the arena this one was built for the 26" is max allowable.
In my case I feel the only advantage I get from my 90 grain load over my 80 grain load is with the wind.
The 80's require 8.7 mils at 1,000 yards where the 90's need another mil of elevation.
When I put my numbers in a ballistic program I see some marginal gain in amount of hold off.

 

[Jdne5b]

So your Starline is stamped 5.56? If so I would think slightly less volume than Lapua?
If I were shooting this rifle in F-Class I would surely have done it with 30" finish length but in the arena this one was built for the 26" is max allowable.
In my case I feel the only advantage I get from my 90 grain load over my 80 grain load is with the wind.
The 80's require 8.7 mils at 1,000 yards where the 90's need another mil of elevation.
When I put my numbers in a ballistic program I see some marginal gain in amount of hold off.

It is 5.56, and very close to Lapua 223 in capacity, except it takes pressure much better. This is a 28inch barrel.