223 Rem and 308 Win!!!

[15Tango]

les baer 1911 - did a tour in afghanistan and still ticking

What branch and MOS allowed you to bring a personal sidearm on a deployment?

 

[whiskey08]

well i wasnt a 15t. I was there nov 2001, before the 670-1 police showed up. when the garrison peeps showed up, on the way back thru the mp's i just told them what i had and locked it up in an isu90 for the trip back.

 

[whiskey08]

.. Remember the .243 Win has the same case as the .308, and many consider it even a bit undersized for deer.

It's not just the boiler room that matters but also the lead it's tossing. A .260 kills deer more effectively than a .243 and it's only half a mm bigger in calibre. The 7-08 even more so. There is less efficiency driving smaller diam projectiles out of a given case.

Chris-NZ

There are pros and cons to a bigger bore. Yes because of the surface area of the bullet, a bigger bore is more efficient at getting velocity with less powder. For example both the 270 and 308 can spit 150 grain bullets at about 2850 pfs. So they will be identical for energy at the muzzle (2700 fpe). But, from that point on is where the con side comes in for the bigger bore. They have to push more air, and slow down faster. At 400 yards the 270 has retained about 1640 fpe, while the 308 has 1320 or about 25% less.

you guys are playing with the numbers to suit your preference. The .308 with a 180gk has 1931 lbs of energy at 400yds and 2200fps of velocity. 1500ft lbs of e at 600yds. if you subscribe to the general number of 1500ft lbs for elk, than this load will work for elk at 600yds.

im not to versed on the .260 but if i run the numbers for a 142gr bullet at 2800 fps it only has 1258 ft lbs of e compared to the .308's 1515ft lbs of e at 600yds.

 

[15Tango]

2800 with a 140 out of a 260 is pretty slow. It appears your muzzle velocity on the 180 out of a 308 is high. Highest I'm seeing for a 180 with a 308 is 2680 FPS. A 180 SMK at 2680 is at 1750 FPS and 1220 Ft Lbs of energy at 600 yards, not 1500 ft lbs. The 140 6.5 bullet (.287) also has a higher sectional density than a 180 30 caliber (.271) which means it'll penetrate deeper.

In order to get a 180 SMK to have 1500 FT lbs at 600 yards you'll have to launch it at 2950 FPS - that's a tall order in a 308 Win., a full 300 FPS faster than book - 300 Win. Mag velocity. If you're going to go by hot rodded rounds I know guys that have managed to push 142 SMKs out of the 260 at 3100 FPS . . . just sayin'.

you guys are playing with the numbers to suit your preference.

It appears you're a little guilty of that as well.

Wayne

 

[whiskey08]

like is said im not to versed on the .260, i was using published data. For the .308 I am. I use the 175 smk to compete with and the 180 gk to hunt with. I use the jbm caculator and nightforce/exball . I dont worry about the fps, what i do is shoot the actual range then plug it in to the caculator. ive used two chronos and didnt like either. when all is said and done, im at 2755fps at 7000 ft. The caculator error is less than .15 moa from zero to 800yds.

 

[whiskey08]

Manufacturer: Sierra Description: Spitzer Boattail (GameKing)
Caliber: 0.308 in Weight: 180.0 gr
Ballistic Coefficients: 0.505 [0-1700], 0.506 [1700-2700], 0.501 [2700-5000] G1

Muzzle Velocity: 2755.0 ft/s Distance to Chronograph: 10.0 ft

Sight Height: 1.90 in Sight Offset: 0.00 in
Zero Height: 0.00 in Zero Offset: 0.00 in
Windage: 0.000 MOA Elevation: 0.000 MOA
Line Of Sight Angle: 0.0 deg Cant Angle: 0.0 deg

Wind Speed: 10.0 mph Wind Angle: 90.0 deg
Target Speed: 10.0 mph Target Angle: 90.0 deg
Target Height: 12.0 in

Temperature: 59.0 °F Pressure: 24.00 in Hg
Humidity: 0.0 % Altitude: 0.0 ft

Vital Zone Radius: 5.0 in

Std. Atmosphere at Altitude: No Pressure is Corrected: No
Zero at Max. Point Blank Range: No Target Relative Drops: Yes
Mark Sound Barrier Crossing: No Include Extra Rows: No
Column 1 Units: 1.00 in Column 2 Units: 1.00 MOA
Round Output to Whole Numbers: No
Output Data
Elevation: 4.074 MOA Windage: 0.000 MOA

Atmospheric Density: 0.06134 lb/ft³ Speed of Sound: 1116.4 ft/s

Maximum PBR: 348 yd Maximum PBR Zero: 295 yd
Range of Maximum Height: 164 yd Energy at Maximum PBR: 2061.5 ft•lbs

Sectional Density: 0.271 lb/in²
Calculated Table
Range Drop Drop Windage Windage Velocity Mach Energy Time Lead Lead
(yd) (in) (MOA) (in) (MOA) (ft/s) (none) (ft•lbs) (s) (in) (MOA)
0 -1.9 *** 0.0 *** 2760.0 2.472 3044.1 0.000 0.0 ***
100 -0.0 -0.0 0.5 0.5 2613.5 2.341 2729.5 0.112 19.7 18.8
200 -3.2 -1.5 2.2 1.0 2472.3 2.214 2442.5 0.230 40.4 19.3
300 -12.1 -3.8 5.0 1.6 2335.5 2.092 2179.6 0.355 62.4 19.9
400 -27.3 -6.5 9.2 2.2 2202.9 1.973 1939.3 0.487 85.7 20.5
500 -49.8 -9.5 14.7 2.8 2074.6 1.858 1720.0 0.627 110.4 21.1
600 -80.3 -12.8 21.8 3.5 1950.8 1.747 1520.8 0.776 136.6 21.7
700 -120.0 -16.4 30.7 4.2 1831.7 1.641 1340.7 0.935 164.6 22.5
800 -170.0 -20.3 41.3 4.9 1717.7 1.539 1179.0 1.104 194.3 23.2
900 -231.9 -24.6 53.9 5.7 1609.1 1.441 1034.7 1.285 226.1 24.0
1000 -307.1 -29.3 68.7 6.6 1506.7 1.350 907.2 1.477 260.0 24.8

 

[15Tango]

The altitude is why your speed is retained compared to my numbers, I was using 1000 FT ASL.

A 140 VLD at 2900 (typical speed people run a 140 at) and at 7000 Ft ASL:

600 yards, 2230 FPS, 1550 Ft lbs of energy.

Wayne

 

[Kenny474]

I don't even see a point in arguing, not that you guys are, and I'm not trying to start BS either. But both the .260 and .308 are great hunting rounds and either will do very well when used on the majority of North American game. There is not a ballistic table going that is going to disprove that, it has been proven over many years of use in the field. I personally feel that 600yds is pushing the limits of either round when hunting medium or large game. It's my opinion that if plans include 600yd shots on game, there are better suited rounds that will retain more energy, have less drift and will likely perform a bit better under a wider variety of conditions.

If shots were limited to 500yds with both on deer size game, 400yds on moose size game and maybe a little less on elk, you would have rounds that would be very reliable performers that would likely have no issue taking game cleanly. It's not that they won't reach farther, only that under adverse conditions it's often better to use a little extra at extreme ranges and a more powerful round would add a little insurance to ensure clean kills and may also provide a little "fudge factor" for errors in wind reading and other such errors with variables.

These are only my opinions, and I know others will feel differently and I'm sure some will say they can make longer shots with either round, and it's possible that they can. I simply feel these are sensible limits that will provide very good and reliable results with less chance of error.

Bottom line, either round will perform the task at hand, as will several others. There is no magic bullet diameter, no magic round. And when comparing 2 rounds so close in design and ballistic performance, it's hard to say there is a definite "better" round. Both have high points, both will work for the job. It really comes down to what you want to have in the magazine, a .308 caliber bullet or a .264.

I think the 7-08 would be a great compromise between the two and would be an excellent choice as well. But who am I to say what's right?

Kenny

edit:
I would just like to add that I do not have the skills or the confidence to take a shot longer than 300yds on a large game animal. I don't have enough practice shooting that far to be comfortable trying it on an animal. I also feel 300yds is plenty enough range in most situations to get the job done, and I honestly don't have the opportunities to shoot even that far when hunting locally, only when I travel out of my area. And even when I hunt elsewhere, I try to get into position where I don't need to shoot any farther than 300yds, that way I never have to push my skills when it risks a poor shot on an animal.

 

[whiskey08]

my point is the .308 is not as feeble as most people think it is. Most people make the mistake of looking at the 150 or 165 gr bullet. Both which produce very average numbers. The .308 shines when you use the 175mk, 185 bergers, and 155 palmas. Everytime i start looking at another cartridge e.g. 300wsm, 7wsm, or .284 im always impressed on how well the .308 compares and how easily and cheaply it does. With those numbers im only using 44.5 grs of varget. Cant get more economical than that, and when you throw in barrel life ....

 

[rks1949]

I think any of the above should do well. It's more about shot placement,and taking shots inside "your comfort zone",than cal. you use when hunting. Alot of people think if they get a 300win mag,they can hit a deer,(or anything else) anywhere and drop it. Nothing is farther from the truth. A bad shot is just that, a bad shot, no matter what you use.Ron