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223 load development w/ new brass

DLT

Silver $$ Contributor
I recently did a rebarrel with an urban 223 wylde on a savage 12 action. The brass I want to use is new starline I have a couple hundred on hand. Question is what do I do with new brass it as far as load development and trying not to burn up components. I plan on using you guys as a step by step for my load development through each of the stages. Thanks
 
I would not waste efforts with powder development until cases have reached stable condition with my permanent reloading plan. So that's 3-4 fire formings.
If that sucks, then planning this out to reduce brass replacements is probably a good idea.

With a new chamber,, all unknown load-wise,, I do primer testing, pressure testing, and full seating testing during some of my fire forming. With that, when I move to powder, my top pressure, primer, and coarse seating is known. I can focus purely on powder.
Last I tweak seating to define it's window and find tightest group shaping.
If I think I can do better than this provided, I may tweak neck tension (through neck sizing length), which takes me back to fine powder adjustments, and chase that little tail for better.
If it isn't good enough, then I'll go all the way back to a different bullet, seating, powder. Start over..

That gets my best hot precision. Cold bore accuracy is a whole different phase, that sometimes dead ends the project for me. Sometimes it saves the gun.
I don't know if a re-barrel would get you close in best load to wherever you were before the re-barrel.
You might end up starting over with full load development..
 
What is your application? Your approach may depend on how you plan to use the load. If it is XTC just check your pet load from the bench at 100 yards with a few groups and go. If it is bench rest or F Class you may need to do more. A hunting load would be different still.
 
How would you test primers ? I only cci 450s and 41s. I sure hope it doesn’t involve a computer
 
What is your application? Your approach may depend on how you plan to use the load. If it is XTC just check your pet load from the bench at 100 yards with a few groups and go. If it is bench rest or F Class you may need to do more. A hunting load would be different still.
Just for fun and bragging rights with the guys. I will only shoot it at 600 and in. And for varmints. I’m in western nc so there isn’t any pd’s around here to shoot at. I plan on using the 69smk and if I learn anything I have a pile of 50, 52, and 53, match/varmint bullets to try and develop a load for also.
 
Are you new to reloading? What will the rifle be used for?
Not new to reloading, but as far as doing any other method other than groups at 100yds for load development is all I have ever done. I will add that right now all I have for 223 is a full length hornady set. All my other calibers I have a Lee collet die and a body die
 
As "chkunz" noted, what is your application?

Here's what I've been doing for the past 50 years or so that works for me. But first let me qualify my remarks by stating that while precision is very important to me since I'm a precision varmint hunter striving for 1/2 moa consistency, I'm not a benchrest or competitive shooter.

I prepare all new cases removing the burrs in the primer flash hole.

I uniform the primer pockets. I'm not convinced that this makes a significant difference in accuracy, but it does greatly aid in cleaning the primer pockets when reloading spent cases.

I trim to a uniform length. I only take the amount off necessary, if any, to produce uniform lengths. I measure the rifle chamber with a Sinclair chamber length gauge to determine the exact length of my rifle chamber. Often, it will be considerably longer than SAMMI specs which means, even with Sinclair's recommended safety margin, I will have to trim very little initially, if any, and very little in the future.

I chamfer the inside and outside of the necks. Often new virgin case will have a rough edge or lip on the end even if you don't trim them. This can contribute to shredding minute brass particles off when sizing which can scratch the neck portion of your sizing die.

I tumble the cases to remove any foreign material from the factory that sometimes exist on new cases.

Finally, I run the cases through a full sizing die very carefully to NOT push back the shoulder or extrude (lengthen the case). I do this to uniform the cases and align the neck with the body of the case.

Load Development: After prepping, I start load development but for me, I've already established loads I've used for years, so this is not usually necessary. But even if it is, I start with the virgin cases. At the level of precision I shoot, I haven't noticed any significant changes in the loads developed with virgin case as opposed to those "fire formed". In other words, I have serviceable reloads from the start. I've taken many of ground hogs at my max skill level distance with virgin cases.

An important element I've learned is do not start pushing back the shoulder until the cases are fully fire formed and required it. I full size all cases, all the time but carefully monitor case head space with a bump gauge and caliper so that I achieve optimum case head space.

I've found that most times the bullet selected has the most significant effect of developing a precise load assuming you're using a powder suitable for the cartridge. I do not test different primers; Federal 205 match primers and Remington 7 1/2 are the primers I use for all my small centerfire cartridge (223) reloading. For larger centerfire cartridges (e.g., 243, 308, etc.), I use Federal 210 primers. These have always worked quite well for me. Switching and testing primers for me just adds another tedious step and variable in the process which I want to avoid. In other words, it's not worth the effort for me to just gain a few .1" tighter group.

I always measure the maximum COL of my rifle before selecting a seating depth. My seating depth is determined by the length of the magazine, inserting at least one bullet diameter into the case to provide adequate neck tension, and because I'm a practical shooter, seat at least 0.10" from the lands to avoid having a bullet become lodged in the lands when I extract an unfired case.
 
I also am careful of brass prep, I have the necessary tools to measure my head space/ shoulder bump on fired brass I aim for a .002 bump. The only thing I don’t do is weigh my brass. With every bullet I decide to load for a do make a dummy round so I’ll know where the lands is
 
For new brass, full length size to straighten the necks and make the cases uniform. Chamfer the neck id, od if it needs it. For your application, load 24.3 gr Varget and seat any bullet on it. CCI 450 and 41 will work fine as will Rem 7 1/2s. Load your 69s to 2.250.
 
I recently did a rebarrel with an urban 223 wylde on a savage 12 action. The brass I want to use is new starline I have a couple hundred on hand. Question is what do I do with new brass it as far as load development and trying not to burn up components. I plan on using you guys as a step by step for my load development through each of the stages. Thanks
I have a model 12 with 26" bull barrel w/Choate aftermarket stock.
I have 2 proven loads.
69gr smk- 8208xbr @ 23 2, OAL 2.235
77gr smk- CFE 223 @ 23.9, OAL 2.26

I use reloaded brass, several brands. It doesn't matter. At 100 yards if I do my part I can get 1/4" more often than not. 1/2" all day.
Top photo 69, bottom 77
 

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I have a model 12 with 26" bull barrel w/Choate aftermarket stock.
I have 2 proven loads.
69gr smk- 8208xbr @ 23 2, OAL 2.235
77gr smk- CFE 223 @ 23.9, OAL 2.26

I use reloaded brass, several brands. It doesn't matter. At 100 yards if I do my part I can get 1/4" more often than not. 1/2" all day.
Top photo 69, bottom 77
If I can get .5 moa all day any day I’ll be happy
 
Reloading by committee is not a good idea, in fact it is a totally bad idea. Since you are starting with new brass I would go with Dan Newberry's OCW method. This will usually get you in the ball park powder wise and make good use of the brass. @mikecr might disagree but this has worked for me.

Since you have a Wylde chamber you can probably go for a longer OAL than 2.26" but that might be a good starting point. As for primers, both are magnum and I have excellent success with Rem 7-1/2. I would pick one and only one to develop powder and/or seating depth. You can go back to the other one after you know the general load parameters

EDIT: I mixed up the pics. OCW gave two nodes, 25.4 and 26. Seating depth was done at 26. The 25.4 was with that seating at 25.4. With the 26, the powder is compressed more than I like.

Load Developed with OCW Then seating depth.
Picture1.jpg
Picture2.jpg
 
First, I would do whatever was necessary to uniform the flash holes (and primer pockets, if necessary). Next, Starline brass seems quite hard in my hands relative to other brands, I would also anneal the cases before doing anything else to them. At that point, you have some choices with respect to generating more consistent neck tension (interference fit) with the virgin brass.

Below, I have outlined a couple variations of approaches I have used in the past with virgin brass. First and foremost, you can certainly load it and shoot it straight out of the box. In that event, I would still uniform the flash holes and trim/chamfer the necks. Nonetheless, you can load and shoot virgin brass with only minimal prep. However, you may notice that the velocity isn't very uniform due to the variance in neck tension, and precision can suffer as a result. Virgin brass prepped using either of these methods can shoot very well indeed, but again, the real key is to obtain uniform neck tension. In my hands, neck tension can be all over the map with virgin brass straight from the box. I'm sure the manufacturers try to make the necks as consistent as they can, but it usually isn't. So in order to generate more consistent neck tension with virgin brass, sizing steps are necessary. The idea is to size the necks more uniformly than they come straight out of the box, thereby improving the precision of loaded rounds. In order to accomplish that, the necks need to be expanded, then sized back down to a uniform diameter, OR sized down, then opened back up to a uniform diameter with a mandrel.





Method 1 - oversized mandrel 1st, bushing die 2nd

The approach here is to use a mandrel first to open up all the necks to some diameter that is slightly larger than the subsequent bushing die step will leave them. Then a bushing die with the appropriate bushing is used to size them back down to provide the desired neck tension as the final neck-sizing step.

I might typically start with a .224" mandrel (i.e. ~bullet diameter). If there is a range of neck diameters within the box as I typically find, a bullet diameter mandrel will bring them all to some consistent minimum diameter that is larger than desired for loading. You will likely find that the 0.224" mandrel will open some necks up a lot, some only a little, and some hardly at all. However, they should all be opened up to a diameter slightly larger than the subsequent bushing die step will leave them. Next, the cases would be sized using a bushing die, which will then size the necks back down just a bit to achieve the desired neck tension. Note: neck wall thickness can vary by brand of brass, so the exact mandrel and bushing sizes need to be determined by the user.

In each step, the brass must actually be moved at least ~.001", or even slightly more. In other words, work must be done on the brass by the mandrel or bushing die in order to achieve the desired consistency. Also, the bushing die needs to be set correctly to re-size brass fired from the specific chamber in which the virgin will be used. That way, the reloader will not be affecting the base-to-shoulder measurement of the virgin brass through the sizing steps, only "re-setting" the neck tension. In other words, if the bushing die is already set correctly for the rifle chamber, only the virgin case necks will be re-sized, not the bodies/shoulders.





Method 2 - bushing die 1st, mandrel 2nd

The approach here is basically the opposite of Method 1, in that the all the case necks will be sized down first using a bushing die to some diameter that is slightly smaller than the subsequent mandrel step will leave them. Then a specific diameter mandrel is used to open the necks back up to the desired neck tension.

In this approach, a bushing is selected that is ~.001" smaller than would be used if the bushing die were to be the sole neck sizing step. For example, if one typically uses a 0.248" bushing as the sole sizing step for .223 Rem brass, then a 0.247" bushing would be a good place to start. As in Method 1, you want to be sure you're not bumping the shoulder back on virgin brass, which doesn't need to be done. So having a bushing die that is already set up to yield the appropriate shoulder bump with brass fired in the same rifle chamber is a benefit because it will not move the shoulders of virgin brass. After the bushing die step, the necks will then be opened up with the appropriate mandrel as the final neck sizing step.

It is important to note that spring-back of the brass works in opposite directions when sizing neck down with a bushing die versus opening them up with a mandrel. With a bushing die, the necks open up slightly as the cases are withdrawn from the bushing die. With a mandrel, the necks close up slightly as the mandrel is withdrawn from the cases. Thus, in order to achieve a neck tension (interference fit) of approximately .002", which is a typical starting point, a mandrel of only 0.0015" under bullet diameter will be necessary as the necks will close up about .0005" or so as the mandrel is withdrawn. I use a 0.2225" mandrel to set neck tension in this fashion with .223 Rem brass. Mandrels of specific diameter or pin gauge sets can be obtained from various sources. I use the SS mandrels and die body from 21st Century:


There may be slightly less expensive sources such as pin gauge sets, but I have been very happy with the quality and consistency of 21st Century's products, and I only need certain mandrel diameters. Regardless of the source of the mandrel(s) for .223 Rem brass prep, I'd start with a 0.224" mandrel for expanding all the necks to a minimum diameter prior to the bushing die step (Method 1), AND/OR a 0.2225" mandrel for setting neck tension with the mandrel (Method 2).

Likewise, it is usually beneficial to have a few different sized bushings for a given cartridge. As with the mandrels, I will usually start with SS bushings as they're much less expensive than titanium nitride-coated bushings. Those can always be purchased later once the specific size needed is known. For .223 Rem, a set of 0.248", 0.247", and 0.246" bushings will usually cover the majority of applications one is likely to encounter.

Regardless of which approach is taken, you will probably want to trim/chamfer the brass prior to loading.





Summary

This may seem like a lot of work and expense to use with virgin brass. Nonetheless, the results speak for themselves. Virgin brass prepped by these methods can shoot very, very well. Yes, you can simply load virgin brass straight out of the box and accept that the results may be mediocre until it has been fire-formed and fully processed for the 2nd firing. But with a little extra time and effort, virgin brass can usually be made to shoot almost as well as brass that has been fire-formed. Because of the variance in neck tension in virgin brass straight out of the box, one either needs to expand all the necks with a mandrel to a minimum diameter larger than the bushing die, then size the necks back down with the bushing die to set the appropriate neck tension (Method 1), OR size the necks down to some maximum diameter smaller than the expander mandrel, then use the mandrel to set the appropriate neck tension (Method 2).

Both of these methods work very well. Virgin brass prepped using either method is far more consistent in my hands than straight out of the box, and it clearly shows in terms of performance. Nonetheless, it does require a bit more effort and may also require obtaining a few bushings and mandrels if one doesn't already have them.

FWIW - several years ago I started using Method 2 as my standard approach for brass prep. In other words, I not only use Method 2 on virgin brass, but for subsequent brass preps, as well. One reason for using a mandrel as the final neck-sizing step is so that slight differences in neck wall thickness with un-turned necks get pushed to the outside with a mandrel, whereas a bushing die will tend push neck wall thickness variance to the inside, exactly where you don't want it. In fact, it is easily possible to "feel" the difference through the press handle when seating bullets. I have found that Method 2 provides more consistent neck tension, and therefore more consistent bullet seating force than simply using a bushing die alone to size necks/cases. Yes, it is more work, but the results are worth the effort, IMO. Further, if one obtains the appropriate bushings and mandrels to use Method 2 on virgin brass, then they will have already acquired the tools necessary to use the same procedure on every brass prep (i.e. the expense of the bushings/mandrels necessary for prepping virgin brass only need be felt once).
 
First, I would do whatever was necessary to uniform the flash holes (and primer pockets, if necessary). Next, Starline brass seems quite hard in my hands relative to other brands, I would also anneal the cases before doing anything else to them. At that point, you have some choices with respect to generating more consistent neck tension (interference fit) with the virgin brass.

Below, I have outlined a couple variations of approaches I have used in the past with virgin brass. First and foremost, you can certainly load it and shoot it straight out of the box. In that event, I would still uniform the flash holes and trim/chamfer the necks. Nonetheless, you can load and shoot virgin brass with only minimal prep. However, you may notice that the velocity isn't very uniform due to the variance in neck tension, and precision can suffer as a result. Virgin brass prepped using either of these methods can shoot very well indeed, but again, the real key is to obtain uniform neck tension. In my hands, neck tension can be all over the map with virgin brass straight from the box. I'm sure the manufacturers try to make the necks as consistent as they can, but it usually isn't. So in order to generate more consistent neck tension with virgin brass, sizing steps are necessary. The idea is to size the necks more uniformly than they come straight out of the box, thereby improving the precision of loaded rounds. In order to accomplish that, the necks need to be expanded, then sized back down to a uniform diameter, OR sized down, then opened back up to a uniform diameter with a mandrel.





Method 1 - oversized mandrel 1st, bushing die 2nd

The approach here is to use a mandrel first to open up all the necks to some diameter that is slightly larger than the subsequent bushing die step will leave them. Then a bushing die with the appropriate bushing is used to size them back down to provide the desired neck tension as the final neck-sizing step.

I might typically start with a .224" mandrel (i.e. ~bullet diameter). If there is a range of neck diameters within the box as I typically find, a bullet diameter mandrel will bring them all to some consistent minimum diameter that is larger than desired for loading. You will likely find that the 0.224" mandrel will open some necks up a lot, some only a little, and some hardly at all. However, they should all be opened up to a diameter slightly larger than the subsequent bushing die step will leave them. Next, the cases would be sized using a bushing die, which will then size the necks back down just a bit to achieve the desired neck tension. Note: neck wall thickness can vary by brand of brass, so the exact mandrel and bushing sizes need to be determined by the user.

In each step, the brass must actually be moved at least ~.001", or even slightly more. In other words, work must be done on the brass by the mandrel or bushing die in order to achieve the desired consistency. Also, the bushing die needs to be set correctly to re-size brass fired from the specific chamber in which the virgin will be used. That way, the reloader will not be affecting the base-to-shoulder measurement of the virgin brass through the sizing steps, only "re-setting" the neck tension. In other words, if the bushing die is already set correctly for the rifle chamber, only the virgin case necks will be re-sized, not the bodies/shoulders.





Method 2 - bushing die 1st, mandrel 2nd

The approach here is basically the opposite of Method 1, in that the all the case necks will be sized down first using a bushing die to some diameter that is slightly smaller than the subsequent mandrel step will leave them. Then a specific diameter mandrel is used to open the necks back up to the desired neck tension.

In this approach, a bushing is selected that is ~.001" smaller than would be used if the bushing die were to be the sole neck sizing step. For example, if one typically uses a 0.248" bushing as the sole sizing step for .223 Rem brass, then a 0.247" bushing would be a good place to start. As in Method 1, you want to be sure you're not bumping the shoulder back on virgin brass, which doesn't need to be done. So having a bushing die that is already set up to yield the appropriate shoulder bump with brass fired in the same rifle chamber is a benefit because it will not move the shoulders of virgin brass. After the bushing die step, the necks will then be opened up with the appropriate mandrel as the final neck sizing step.

It is important to note that spring-back of the brass works in opposite directions when sizing neck down with a bushing die versus opening them up with a mandrel. With a bushing die, the necks open up slightly as the cases are withdrawn from the bushing die. With a mandrel, the necks close up slightly as the mandrel is withdrawn from the cases. Thus, in order to achieve a neck tension (interference fit) of approximately .002", which is a typical starting point, a mandrel of only 0.0015" under bullet diameter will be necessary as the necks will close up about .0005" or so as the mandrel is withdrawn. I use a 0.2225" mandrel to set neck tension in this fashion with .223 Rem brass. Mandrels of specific diameter or pin gauge sets can be obtained from various sources. I use the SS mandrels and die body from 21st Century:


There may be slightly less expensive sources such as pin gauge sets, but I have been very happy with the quality and consistency of 21st Century's products, and I only need certain mandrel diameters. Regardless of the source of the mandrel(s) for .223 Rem brass prep, I'd start with a 0.224" mandrel for expanding all the necks to a minimum diameter prior to the bushing die step (Method 1), AND/OR a 0.2225" mandrel for setting neck tension with the mandrel (Method 2).

Likewise, it is usually beneficial to have a few different sized bushings for a given cartridge. As with the mandrels, I will usually start with SS bushings as they're much less expensive than titanium nitride-coated bushings. Those can always be purchased later once the specific size needed is known. For .223 Rem, a set of 0.248", 0.247", and 0.246" bushings will usually cover the majority of applications one is likely to encounter.

Regardless of which approach is taken, you will probably want to trim/chamfer the brass prior to loading.





Summary

This may seem like a lot of work and expense to use with virgin brass. Nonetheless, the results speak for themselves. Virgin brass prepped by these methods can shoot very, very well. Yes, you can simply load virgin brass straight out of the box and accept that the results may be mediocre until it has been fire-formed and fully processed for the 2nd firing. But with a little extra time and effort, virgin brass can usually be made to shoot almost as well as brass that has been fire-formed. Because of the variance in neck tension in virgin brass straight out of the box, one either needs to expand all the necks with a mandrel to a minimum diameter larger than the bushing die, then size the necks back down with the bushing die to set the appropriate neck tension (Method 1), OR size the necks down to some maximum diameter smaller than the expander mandrel, then use the mandrel to set the appropriate neck tension (Method 2).

Both of these methods work very well. Virgin brass prepped using either method is far more consistent in my hands than straight out of the box, and it clearly shows in terms of performance. Nonetheless, it does require a bit more effort and may also require obtaining a few bushings and mandrels if one doesn't already have them.

FWIW - several years ago I started using Method 2 as my standard approach for brass prep. In other words, I not only use Method 2 on virgin brass, but for subsequent brass preps, as well. One reason for using a mandrel as the final neck-sizing step is so that slight differences in neck wall thickness with un-turned necks get pushed to the outside with a mandrel, whereas a bushing die will tend push neck wall thickness variance to the inside, exactly where you don't want it. In fact, it is easily possible to "feel" the difference through the press handle when seating bullets. I have found that Method 2 provides more consistent neck tension, and therefore more consistent bullet seating force than simply using a bushing die alone to size necks/cases. Yes, it is more work, but the results are worth the effort, IMO. Further, if one obtains the appropriate bushings and mandrels to use Method 2 on virgin brass, then they will have already acquired the tools necessary to use the same procedure on every brass prep (i.e. the expense of the bushings/mandrels necessary for prepping virgin brass only need be felt once).
I think this is a little bit over the top for a 600yd load, and the OP has RCBS dies.
 
Deburr the flash hole, run thru a Lee Collet neck die, and chamfer the neck. In 223, new brass prepped this way has shot the same for me as fire formed. It's interesting that many report fire forming to an AI is just as accurate as after!
 
I think this is a little bit over the top for a 600yd load, and the OP has RCBS dies.
My reply was not solely for the OP, as questions about prepping virgin brass are relatively common. IMO, nothing is over the top when it comes to competition, whether the competition is organized, or simply between friends. One may choose to omit a particular step in the reloading process, but it's almost guaranteed that at least some of the other competitors will be doing it. I feel it is better to be more detailed in a reply, sometimes including perhaps [a lot] more information than is necessary, then let the reader decide to what length they wish to go. As I already noted, the easy button is simply to load and shoot the brass straight out of the box. It doesn't get any simpler than that. There are plenty of other caveats involved here, such as the use of lightweight bullets (i.e. </= 69 gr), which are far from ideal for shooting at 600 yd, regardless of how the brass is prepped. BTW - the OP stated the .223 Rem dies were from Hornady, not RCBS.
 
If you have a couple of good loads for your present 223's, then follow the instruction/safety advice in any of you loading manuals that say to reduce a given load 10 % or so and work back up in a load, when ever you change a component in your present load. With the Wylde improvement you will find you can, of course, go slightly higher in pressure, but work up slow and safely.
I recently did a rebarrel with an urban 223 wylde on a savage 12 action. The brass I want to use is new starline I have a couple hundred on hand. Question is what do I do with new brass it as far as load development and trying not to burn up components. I plan on using you guys as a step by step for my load development through each of the stages. Thanks
 
My reply was not solely for the OP, as questions about prepping virgin brass are relatively common. IMO, nothing is over the top when it comes to competition, whether the competition is organized, or simply between friends. One may choose to omit a particular step in the reloading process, but it's almost guaranteed that at least some of the other competitors will be doing it. I feel it is better to be more detailed in a reply, sometimes including perhaps [a lot] more information than is necessary, then let the reader decide to what length they wish to go. As I already noted, the easy button is simply to load and shoot the brass straight out of the box. It doesn't get any simpler than that. There are plenty of other caveats involved here, such as the use of lightweight bullets (i.e. </= 69 gr), which are far from ideal for shooting at 600 yd, regardless of how the brass is prepped. BTW - the OP stated the .223 Rem dies were from Hornady, not RCBS.
Brain fart on the dies. And I certainly didn't mean to contradict any of your recommendations or observations.
 

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