223 Lake City Brass vs Remington Brass

[K9I449]

My buddy keep telling me that Lake City Brass in 223 Remington will give high pressures than normal 223 Remington Brass, with the same load.

 

[hothead]

Not true. it is very close in weight. so no load differance. GI brass in 308 is a differant story.

 

[bigedp51]

Lake City and Remington .223/5.56 cartridge case are very close in "average" case weight, "BUT" Remington cases can vary in weight far more than Lake City cases do. Meaning the commercial Remington cases will also vary in case capacity more than Military Lake City cases.

I have Remington .223 cases the vary in weight from 90 to over 94 grains, and in these Remington cases I only load them to 24.7 grains of H335 for practice in my AR15 rifles.



What is also important to know is the military cases have mil-spec hardness requirements and are tougher and made for higher pressures. (Lake City cases are built Ford truck tough) ;D










When the M16 rifle was first introduced military contract 5.56 ammunition was linked to part of the M16 jamming problem and the military set new hardness standards for military cases. (commercial brass was too soft)

 

[treeman]

I find winchester and lake city brass to be very close in every aspect i.e. avg. wt, avg neck thickness, avg. neck thickness variation. don't know about hardness. remington has a much wider variation all the way around

 

[ar10ar15man]

LAKE CITY does not make 223 REMINGTON brass.....

 

[bigedp51]

LAKE CITY does not make 223 REMINGTON brass.....

Lake City didn't make 7.62×63mm brass either. :

 

[Lapua40X]

LAKE CITY does not make 223 REMINGTON brass.....

I'm sitting here looking at a .223 cartridge (reload) with "L C 0 8" headstamp. What do I have????

 

[ar10ar15man]

please post a pic of the case head...if it says 223...
somehow i bet it does not

my lake city 08( i have a 1000 or so) are marked:
LC 08 ( at 6 o'clock) and the nato circle cross ( at 12 o'clock)

it does not say 223 rem nor 223 remington..anywhere

lc makes 5.56 nato/ 5.56 x45 ..but no 223 remington..none

LAKE CITY does not make 223 REMINGTON brass.....

I'm sitting here looking at a .223 cartridge (reload) with "L C 0 8" headstamp. What do I have????

 

[bigedp51]

LAKE CITY does not make 223 REMINGTON brass.....

I'm sitting here looking at a .223 cartridge (reload) with "L C 0 8" headstamp. What do I have????

I'll take a guess and say a metric conversion page from the Sierra reloading manual. :



I have a .223/5.56mm speedometer that also works in Canada.

 

[ar10ar15man]

THEY are not the SAME......
one can get in trouble shooting hot modern military 5.56 in a target chambered 223 rem..

as a side note, because so many people shoot 5.56 in thier 223's ,there is very few companies that produce 5.56 ammo this is loaded past 223 rem specs in the states

 

[jonbearman]

We need to calm down and not get angry with every post.This subject has been covered many times and many shooters have actually used nato ammo in todays lawyer chambers with no problems.I am not saying it is ok,but I think the debate has been covered so many times that most shooters who read the manual that comes with their sporter recognize the difference.We debate and we should be respectful even when we disagree.Lets keep it civil and enjoy what we love to do(talk about shooting) without loosing it.Imho.

 

[bigedp51]

THEY are not the SAME......
one can get in trouble shooting hot modern military 5.56 in a target chambered 223 rem..

as a side note, because so many people shoot 5.56 in thier 223's ,there is very few companies that produce 5.56 ammo this is loaded past 223 rem specs in the states

The SAAMI interchangeability warning for the .223 and 5.56 didn't come out until 1979 with the introduction of the military M855 round and the M16s newer longer throat and twist rate change.

My Stevens 200 .223 bolt action has a 1 in 9 twist and a longer throat than either of my two AR15 rifles, and came that way from the factory.

.223 SAAMI pressure using the copper crusher, 52,000 cup
.223 SAAMI pressure using the piezo transducer, 55,000 psi
.223 European CIP using a piezo transducer, 62,000 psi



If you fire a military M855 cartridge in a .223 rifle with a short throat the pressure will be 5,000 psi higher than the "rated" chamber pressure of the .223. The military M193 ammunition is loaded to the same exact pressures as the .223 and was fired in M16 rifles with a short throat.

 

[ar10ar15man]

nice pics and chart..
but you did not mention that the 223 cip figure is the same pressure as 5.56x45 nato cip...4300bar

and how did you determine that one would only see a 5000 psi rise shooting m855 5.56 in a "short throat" 223 rem chamber ??

the safety fsctor in proof testing runs 25%/30%..so typically a small rise in pressure is pretty well covered...

and what happens with a 77gr sie otm designated marksman round ?

or an army heavy bullet SPECIAL PURPOSE round ?

until very recently one coulld not buy 5.56 NATO dies for reloading, all dies were 223 remington.

 

[bigedp51]

The European CIP considers the .308/7.62 and the .223/5.56 to be the same cartridges at the same pressure levels.

The CIP pressure figure of 62,000 psi is exactly the same pressure as the SAAMI transducer pressure of 55,000 psi. The CIP and SAAMI transducers are located at different locations on the case and give different readings for the "EXACT SAME PRESSURE".

The pressure confusion started when we switched from the copper crusher "CUP" to the transducer method "PSI". And was further confused by using the European CIP standard for NATO test results.

M193 military ammo is loaded to the same exact pressure as SAAMI .223 ammunition. M855 military ammo is loaded to the same pressure level "BUT" has a longer throat. (a short throat will cause a pressure increase) When military 5.56 M855 ammo is fired in a .223 with a short throat designed for lighter bullets and a 1 in 14 or 1 in 12 twist you will have higher pressures.

Again the SAAMI interchangeability warning for the .223/5.56 did not come out until 1979 when the military started using the new military M855 ammunition.

Below actual strain gauge pressure testing.

5.56 vs .223 – What You Know May Be Wrong
http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/5-56-vs-223/

As a side note this is why I was asking about Quickload pressures the other day, if you switch from 5.56x45 NATO to .223 SAAMI using the same powder charge and bullet the pressure doesn't change. Quickload does not account for different throat lengths.

 

[ar10ar15man]

but the PRESSURE LIMIT drops back to 55kpsi......

remeber its a tool and its about a cartridge..not a gun....it does account for burn time and bbl lenght, but there is no way to account for every reamer on the market...
it is a tool..and you need to learn how to use the tool...
it is not a bible...

As a side note this is why I was asking about Quickload pressures the other day, if you switch from 5.56x45 NATO to .223 SAAMI using the same powder charge and bullet the pressure doesn't change. Quickload does not account for different throat lengths.

 

[ar10ar15man]

the above artcle is very good but i wish he had tested some mil ammo..not commercial ammo.
just saying...

 

[bigedp51]

but the PRESSURE LIMIT drops back to 55kpsi......

remeber its a tool and its about a cartridge..not a gun....it does account for burn time and bbl lenght, but there is no way to account for every reamer on the market...
it is a tool..and you need to learn how to use the tool...
it is not a bible...

As a side note this is why I was asking about Quickload pressures the other day, if you switch from 5.56x45 NATO to .223 SAAMI using the same powder charge and bullet the pressure doesn't change. Quickload does not account for different throat lengths.

In this case I understand the pressures better than you thought you did and here is the bible of .223 pressures.

And I'll say it one more time, Quickload doesn't know the difference between the .223 and 5.56 throat lengths, and it has TWO .223/5.56 pressure listings, and both pressures are equal to each other.

55000 psi Piezo SAAMI
62366 psi Piezo CIP

 

[KevinThomas]

Well now that we've thoroughly beaten this horse to death, to address the OPs question, yes, the 223 Rem and 5.56mm cases are interchangeable. There's some difference inthe ammo itself, and certainly between the 223 Rem and 5.56mm NATO chambers and throats, but the brass is essentially the same. Personally, I'd take the LC stuff over the Remington, as it usually seems to be much better quality.

Hothead and BigEd answered all this in the first 2-3 posts, before we got off to the races!

 

[bigedp51]

the above artcle is very good but i wish he had tested some mil ammo..not commercial ammo.
just saying...

Federial XM855 is loaded to military specifications, meaning velocity and pressures as indicated by the pressure chart furnished below.

 

[bigedp51]

Well now that we've thoroughly beaten this horse to death, to address the OPs question, yes, the 223 Rem and 5.56mm cases are interchangeable. There's some difference inthe ammo itself, and certainly between the 223 Rem and 5.56mm NATO chambers and throats, but the brass is essentially the same. Personally, I'd take the LC stuff over the Remington, as it usually seems to be much better quality.

Hothead and BigEd answered all this in the first 2-3 posts, before we got off to the races!

Mr. Kevin Thomas
Lapua USA

No horses were abused during any of my postings, my postings are for the benefit of the hard headed misinformed mules reading the postings.



As you can see below it is perfectly safe to put 32 psi in your tires but if you put 220 kPa in your tires they will blow up and kill everyone in a 300 yard radius. :