223 Ladder Test

[NZ_Fclass]

I have always found that the primers make the biggest difference on the 223. I have never had good figures - and rely entirely on what the target says. Best results are with 75g/77g with Varget and Federal match primers, when I can usually clean the target at 500/600 on a good day. I expect to do some testing with Ginex primers before the season is finished and I can get a scope on the 223...currently borrowed on the spare 308.

 

[searcher]

When I get SD's like that in a .223, I switch powder. A primer substitution can help - but not change the dynamics of the load - only tweak it a little. I'd opt to change powder before messing with primers, as I don't think that bullet is liking that powder. I've tuned probably 20 different .223's and when you match the right powder for the bullet chosen, it is amazing how things tighten up. I'll often ladder four or five different powders (sometimes more if things still aren't looking good!) and usually find one that stands out above all the rest by a good margin. I recall when I first got a 6PPC back in the 80's and everyone said the N powder was all one needed. Darn near burned the barrel out trying to get it to work. It never did. Turned out every other powder tried shot better in that barrel. I wouldn't start with 5-shot groups when selecting powder. I'd go 3 shots on a ladder so you can try a lot of things without putting too much mileage on barrel and costly components - narrowing down my "finalists" to 5-shot re-tests.

 

[Dave Zander]

When I get SD's like that in a .223, I switch powder. A primer substitution can help - but not change the dynamics of the load - only tweak it a little. I'd opt to change powder before messing with primers, as I don't think that bullet is liking that powder. I've tuned probably 20 different .223's and when you match the right powder for the bullet chosen, it is amazing how things tighten up. I'll often ladder four or five different powders (sometimes more if things still aren't looking good!) and usually find one that stands out above all the rest by a good margin. I recall when I first got a 6PPC back in the 80's and everyone said the N powder was all one needed. Darn near burned the barrel out trying to get it to work. It never did. Turned out every other powder tried shot better in that barrel. I wouldn't start with 5-shot groups when selecting powder. I'd go 3 shots on a ladder so you can try a lot of things without putting too much mileage on barrel and costly components - narrowing down my "finalists" to 5-shot re-tests.

Funny that’s what happened to me switching for 140 to 150. When I ran 85.5’s last year , but in a different barrel , N140 worked well. I know several guys use 140 and Varget with good results it just didn’t work for me with the 90.

 

[Ajwilly96]

I don't think these results seem "off" at all. This is typical behavior for a .223 with heavies. Everything has to be "just so" and even then, 20-30+ fps ES values for 5 shots is typical. I would be very cautious about running charges of 25+ gr of N140 under a 90 VLD. Brass life already tends to be pretty poor in .223 Rem loads such as these. No need to make it worse for just a few fps more velocity. Once all the brass has been fire-formed, testing different primers and sorting cases by water volume (laborious), or by case weight as a surrogate for case volume (much easier, but less accurate), may help lower the ES/SD values. Finally, consistent/uniform neck tension is a necessity.

I started getting some hard bolt lift at 25.1, I for sure don’t want to go past 25.4. I attached a picture of my brass from 25.4. I think I may just take a target out to 600 and try to tune at a distance.

 

[Zero333]

Audette Ladder test is based on POINT OF IMPACT... I do mine at 330 yards... If the shots are too close to each other, I more farther out to 400 yards.

Velicity is irrelevant,.. only POINT OF IMPACT matters when shooting a Audette Ladder Testing.

Once you find a few charge weights that are very close together, that's when you Chronograph them and choose the one that has the best ES/SD

 

[Ned Ludd]

I started getting some hard bolt lift at 25.1, I for sure don’t want to go past 25.4. I attached a picture of my brass from 25.4. I think I may just take a target out to 600 and try to tune at a distance.

Those primers appear to be visibly cratered, which is typically not a good sign. However, that can also occur at much lower pressure with a bolt that needs to have the firing pin hole bushed, so it's not definitive proof of excessive pressure. If you don't already own one of these, I would strongly suggest getting one:

https://ballistictools.com/store/re...unition-gauges/swage-gage-small-primer-pocket

This tool can save a lot of time by preventing one from processing brass where the primer pocket is already too loose to hold a primer. I view it as a "must have" for anyone pushing heavies fairly hard in a .223 Rem bolt gun.

 

[CharlieNC]

Audette Ladder test is based on POINT OF IMPACT... I do mine at 330 yards... If the shots are too close to each other, I more farther out to 400 yards.

Velicity is irrelevant,.. only POINT OF IMPACT matters when shooting a Audette Ladder Testing.

Once you find a few charge weights that are very close together, that's when you Chronograph them and choose the one that has the best ES/SD

Yep. So far 200yd has provided clear POI resolution for me. If it doesn't show up on the target it's not worth worrying about.

 

[DLT]

You can throw the kitchen sink at load prep and do better, but ultimately the 223 just never seems to get tight ES numbers like the 308 or BR cases. By tuning at distance, you may find you can get good grouping despite larger ES numbers.

What type of brass are you using and what have you done to prep/sort it so far?

I did on mine, but I’m moving a 80smk with varget, 450 primer and lapua brass it’s a hammer although slow at just 2685 fps

 

[karrarararararar]

I'm doing load development on my 223 right now. Starline brass, 88 ELD's, n135, br4's. My SD's have been ~10. Here's my data from doing jump testing

 

[Evan]

Brand new F-Class panda

Might be worth verifying that you have at least 0.230 inches of pin fall. More is better, and I’ve heard of some Pandas that didn’t have enough and started shooting ALOT better when fixed.

 

[Ajwilly96]

Might be worth verifying that you have at least 0.230 inches of pin fall. More is better, and I’ve heard of some Pandas that didn’t have enough and started shooting ALOT better when fixed.

I’ve checked that. I’m getting .2475

 

[JFrank]

I’ve checked that. I’m getting .2475

Numbers are great to have but if your goal is to shoot 1000 yards you should consider the target as well, post an image of your ladder test you’ll likely receive great advice.

 

[Ajwilly96]

Something I did not even consider but looking at this chart I definitely see a trend but I would need more data is the fact that I was adjusting my tuner every two shots. I was between setting 6.5 and setting 6 for my final.

 

[CharlieNC]

Something I did not even consider but looking at this chart I definitely see a trend but I would need more data is the fact that I was adjusting my tuner every two shots. I was between setting 6.5 and setting 6 for my final.
View attachment 1524567

With an ES of 50 you can draw samples from that distribution which give a picture like looking at the clouds, you see what you want to see. What about the target?

 

[Ajwilly96]

With an ES of 50 you can draw samples from that distribution which give a picture like looking at the clouds, you see what you want to see. What about the target?

Target showed a .366MOA group, and a .932MOA based on setting 6 and 6.5

 

[CharlieNC]

Target showed a .366MOA group, and a .932MOA based on setting 6 and 6.5

So what did the velocity chart reveal vs the target?

 

[Ajwilly96]

So what did the velocity chart reveal vs the target?

Not much, because I was only shooting at 100yds. As I also stated I would need more data

 

[Webster]

I started getting some hard bolt lift at 25.1, I for sure don’t want to go past 25.4. I attached a picture of my brass from 25.4. I think I may just take a target out to 600 and try to tune at a distance.

Looks like a slight extractor hole swipe mark. I would think your at a disadvantage at 600 & 1000 yards with a 223.

 

[SSchnd]

I'm doing load development on my 223 right now. Starline brass, 88 ELD's, n135, br4's. My SD's have been ~10. Here's my data from doing jump testing

Doing Same here and just found my desired results this past weekend but
I was also playing with the action screw torque on targets 1-3,
23,7 N 135
88 ELDM
Virgin General Dynamics brass
CCI450
V. 2827.8,2831.1, 2822.9
SD 3.6 on clean cold barrel, SD 9.7, SD 7.5


target 4- is where finished, dropped charged to 23.6 all else other than the third action screw torque back to 55 in lbs and 35 in lbs on the front two screws I had found my desired print on the 100 yard range
velocity came back down again barrel cold each time I started but
V.2797 SD 4.0
I usually see a slower shot one on a cold bore with this rifle
Factory Savage F T/R
38 F
10-14 mph winds

Interesting comparison is we have had excellent results using Starline 5.56 virgin brass but the velocity is a little slower than the General Dynamics virgin cases and has been throughout our testing.

Target faces are a reduced F for 100 yards on printer paper so the holes are not the crisp clean wadcutter like good target paper.

1/2" X ring

Target 1-3 were shot using 5 in lbs incremental 3rd action screw torque setting, did not see much with 1-2 but 3 at most definitely changed shape.
reduced the 3rd screw torque back and was pleased for fourth target test at 23.6 N 135.

Chrono- buddies Garmin Xero by the way

 

[karrarararararar]

Doing Same here and just found my desired results this past weekend but
I was also playing with the action screw torque on targets 1-3,
23,7 N 135
88 ELDM
Virgin General Dynamics brass
CCI450
V. 2827.8,2831.1, 2822.9
SD 3.6 on clean cold barrel, SD 9.7, SD 7.5


target 4- is where finished, dropped charged to 23.6 all else other than the third action screw torque back to 55 in lbs and 35 in lbs on the front two screws I had found my desired print on the 100 yard range
velocity came back down again barrel cold each time I started but
V.2797 SD 4.0
I usually see a slower shot one on a cold bore with this rifle
Factory Savage F T/R
38 F
10-14 mph winds

Interesting comparison is we have had excellent results using Starline 5.56 virgin brass but the velocity is a little slower than the General Dynamics virgin cases and has been throughout our testing.

Target faces are a reduced F for 100 yards on printer paper so the holes are not the crisp clean wadcutter like good target paper.

1/2" X ring

Target 1-3 were shot using 5 in lbs incremental 3rd action screw torque setting, did not see much with 1-2 but 3 at most definitely changed shape.
reduced the 3rd screw torque back and was pleased for fourth target test at 23.6 N 135.

Chrono- buddies Garmin Xero by the way

I am at 23.8gr, so not far off. This is the result of the 3 shot jump tests.