.223 Heavies

[CF Junkie]

Actually, it was.
My first load was set for a jump of 0.117 and 4 groups averaged 0.240 with the best group of 0.211 and one group I really messed up at 0.282.
I pressed my luck and tried a shorter jump of 0.081 and the 4 groups averaged 0.205 with groups of 0.167, 0.197, 0.214 and a group I messed up at 0.242.

I got overconfident and loaded two loads with jumps of 0.070 and 0.071, tempting fate with a lot less bullet in the neck.
I shot 8 groups with groups of 0.191, 0.193, 0.211, 0..212, 0.212, 0.214, 0.219 and 0.233 for an overall average of 0.211. The 0.233 was the result of barrel warming allowing the last two shots to drop a bit.
The good 7 groups averaged 0.208.

I think I can get away with about 40% of the bullet caliber in the neck.

 

[RegionRat]

For commercial bullets, those are very good stats.

You don't typically see the heavier commercial boat tails hold in the ones and low twos with the exceptions of HM folks in F-T/R and LR BR folks. Well Done!

I would stretch it out and then decide.

It might be easier to "read the tea leaves" on that seating depth question with the multiplication factor that comes from a little more time in the air.

If for example you shot that testing at 300, you may or may not see any difference, however you might decide there was something to gain and then it would still be more robust at 100 on windy days.

In any case, well done.

 

[charlie b]

Let me know and I'll make you a 7 twist with my 230 fb reamer. It's excellent for the 88 ELDM and 90 SMK. Super easy to load. Shoots shockingly well.

Sent my order in this week. Looking forward to getting it.

 

[memilanuk]

Great thread guys. @urbanrifleman those pics with the different bullets seated in the case neck were a great help! @CF Junkie if you can keep those kinds of groups going at distance, you're going to be tough to beat!

 

[charlie b]

Sorry, no pictures yet.

I got my barrel from Brad last week. Stainless, 26" with .230 throat and 1:7 twist. I've put it on my Axis receiver for now with a Vortex PST 5-25 scope (it may end up on my model 12).

I started with the 88ELD's and they have been ok, but, not great. MOA or a little better. FWIW, with 24.2gn N540 they are going 2800fps. Cases show no signs of distress at all and they slide out of the chamber easily (the range is at 4500ft elevation).

So I got some 90 SMK's and Berger VLD's to try out. Shot some of the SMK's this morning, but, only a few. I have always shot SMK's with about .020 jump so that's where I set these. 23.0gn of N540 and Rem 7 1/2 primers, 200yd targets. The first three went into a 0.6" group!! Didn't expect that. Second group was 0.7". Not bad at all. FWIW, the 23.0gn load got me 2630fps. The cases 'fell' out of the chamber.

Will fire a full ladder next time out.

Thanks Brad. I think this one is a keeper.

 

[CF Junkie]

charlie b,
Congratulations on your new barrel.

You didn't say if you broke the barrel in before getting down to measuring.
I did that with my Shilen for 50 rounds.
But even after break in, the next 25 rounds were good but got better after 75 rounds.
After shooting the new barrel, I learned to maintain my aim point much more carefully and the groups improved a lot.
When my factory 12 FV didn't shoot as accurately, I just didn't aim as carefully. With the new barrel, when bullets go into the same hole, and then one doesn't because I didn't aim carefully enough, I learned that I had to improve my process to produce the groups the barrel was capable of.
Now, more than 30% of my groups are under 0.200. But that only happens when I do my part consistently,

Another thought, switching to an Oryx or MDT LSS chassis would probably get better results than your Axis factory chassis. My switch to an Oryx with my 12 FV from the factory stock reduced about 0.100 in average size. The Oryx aluminum chassis is much more stable and my 26-inch bull barrel doesn't touch anything but the lug and action.
And recently switching from an Oryx to an MDT LSS chassis after I bought my Shilen barrel (the LSS was on sale and I couldn't resist) has gained me about 0.020, That's improving more than 10% for my best groups with the Shilen.

 

[urbanrifleman]

Sorry, no pictures yet.

I got my barrel from Brad last week. Stainless, 26" with .230 throat and 1:7 twist. I've put it on my Axis receiver for now with a Vortex PST 5-25 scope (it may end up on my model 12).

I started with the 88ELD's and they have been ok, but, not great. MOA or a little better. FWIW, with 24.2gn N540 they are going 2800fps. Cases show no signs of distress at all and they slide out of the chamber easily (the range is at 4500ft elevation).

So I got some 90 SMK's and Berger VLD's to try out. Shot some of the SMK's this morning, but, only a few. I have always shot SMK's with about .020 jump so that's where I set these. 23.0gn of N540 and Rem 7 1/2 primers, 200yd targets. The first three went into a 0.6" group!! Didn't expect that. Second group was 0.7". Not bad at all. FWIW, the 23.0gn load got me 2630fps. The cases 'fell' out of the chamber.

Will fire a full ladder next time out.

Thanks Brad. I think this one is a keeper.

I like to see about 2680 to 2730 fps. That's usually where the best node is.

Yah, people don't realize how well these 223 with the 90s and the correct freebore will shoot.

I shoot 88s and 90s jammed 20 btw. The 88a love jam

 

[Hengehold]

Sorry, no pictures yet.

I got my barrel from Brad last week. Stainless, 26" with .230 throat and 1:7 twist. I've put it on my Axis receiver for now with a Vortex PST 5-25 scope (it may end up on my model 12).

I started with the 88ELD's and they have been ok, but, not great. MOA or a little better. FWIW, with 24.2gn N540 they are going 2800fps. Cases show no signs of distress at all and they slide out of the chamber easily (the range is at 4500ft elevation).

So I got some 90 SMK's and Berger VLD's to try out. Shot some of the SMK's this morning, but, only a few. I have always shot SMK's with about .020 jump so that's where I set these. 23.0gn of N540 and Rem 7 1/2 primers, 200yd targets. The first three went into a 0.6" group!! Didn't expect that. Second group was 0.7". Not bad at all. FWIW, the 23.0gn load got me 2630fps. The cases 'fell' out of the chamber.

Will fire a full ladder next time out.

Thanks Brad. I think this one is a keeper.

You have a .230 freebore!

I have a .195 freebore in mine and if I seat the 90 SMK bullet to touch the lands then it is barely in the neck. It definitely seems like I need to jump them .030-.060 to ensure there is some extra neck holding onto the bullet.

I am surprised to read that yours has a throat that long because Seems like a .230 would be waaaaay to long, even for a 90gr.

 

[Evan]

Sorry, no pictures yet.

I got my barrel from Brad last week. Stainless, 26" with .230 throat and 1:7 twist. I've put it on my Axis receiver for now with a Vortex PST 5-25 scope (it may end up on my model 12).

I started with the 88ELD's and they have been ok, but, not great. MOA or a little better. FWIW, with 24.2gn N540 they are going 2800fps. Cases show no signs of distress at all and they slide out of the chamber easily (the range is at 4500ft elevation).

So I got some 90 SMK's and Berger VLD's to try out. Shot some of the SMK's this morning, but, only a few. I have always shot SMK's with about .020 jump so that's where I set these. 23.0gn of N540 and Rem 7 1/2 primers, 200yd targets. The first three went into a 0.6" group!! Didn't expect that. Second group was 0.7". Not bad at all. FWIW, the 23.0gn load got me 2630fps. The cases 'fell' out of the chamber.

Will fire a full ladder next time out.

Thanks Brad. I think this one is a keeper.

90 SMK has preferred a jam in every barrel I have had. It is a fantastic bullet that has shot many 4” 1000yd groups in LRBR.

 

[Dgd6mm]

0.230 freebore will accommodate the Hornaday 88 ELDM's.

 

[CF Junkie]

Hengehold,
I have exactly the same situation.
With a VLD chamber, even my 90s barely touch the cartridge necks when just touching the lands.

 

[urbanrifleman]

I am surprised to read that yours has a throat that long because Seems like a .230 would be waaaaay to long, even for a 90gr.

I posted the pictures of the bullets seated with the ISSF169 and the 230 in this thread.

88 ELDM. You can't even see the pressure ring. I shoot them 20 in, or you would need 250 or more.



Here is 90 SMK. That is perfectly acceptable for me. A little past halfway down the neck.



The neck of 223 is only 200 thou or so. You don't have a lot to play with. If you seat to "bullet diameter" you are in the donut.

I submit that the Dashers with the tiny little neck and typical freebore doesn't look a whole lot different. And it's set a few records.

 

[charlie b]

Those pics are really close to what I get when the bullets are seated.

This morning's results. Center circle is 1". Range is 200yd. Keep in mind that my shooting is not as consistent as I'd like. That bottom target shows the result when I lift my head instead of holding still in the follow through.

Thanks Evan. I liked your .222/,22PPC experiment. I will pick a load and then do a seating test.


I still have trouble with ES/SD on these cases. It has always escaped me how the POI is sometimes contradictory to the vel. Eg, the 23.3gn load #10 and 12. Almost 40fps difference and POIs are nearly on top of each other.

FWIW, when I load for the 6BR it is not unusual to have a 10/4 es/sd, so I at least know I can reload well enough.

And, yes, the Bergers are next.

CFJ, the Axis is bedded with pillars into a Boyd's Pro Varmint stock. Not the greatest setup but it will consistently shoot better than I can. A lot of the problem is me. I did do a 'break in' with the 88ELD's (about 100 rounds). I didn't record much but about half way through I noticed I had made a big boo boo. I had not checked the barrel channel. The new barrel is larger dia than the shorter Savage heavy varmint barrel and was not full floated. So, after a bit of time with a dowel and sandpaper I got about 1/8" clearance around the barrel now. Yes, it shot better after that

My biggest problem is follow through. Just like in golf, pistol and shotgun, I lift my head to see where the shot will go just as I finish the trigger pull.

 

[CF Junkie]

charlie b,
I know the problem.
My biggest single reason why I get about 50% of my groups in every session about 0.020 to 0.030 larger than the others is my inability to maintain my process and maintain concentration.
I would like to say it is age, but I think is my inability to keep my mind in the game.
When groups start to grow, it is usually because I got over confident that things were working and then left out one critical step in my process. Lately, it is getting anxious with the trigger and pulling the next shot.
It only takes one missed step to ruin a good group.
It is tough for me to shoot really consistently. I have spurts of really great groups, but the spurts always seem to go bad after two groups.

 

[urbanrifleman]

Those pics are really close to what I get when the bullets are seated.

This morning's results. Center circle is 1". Range is 200yd. Keep in mind that my shooting is not as consistent as I'd like. That bottom target shows the result when I lift my head instead of holding still in the follow through.

Thanks Evan. I liked your .222/,22PPC experiment. I will pick a load and then do a seating test.
View attachment 1711624

I still have trouble with ES/SD on these cases. It has always escaped me how the POI is sometimes contradictory to the vel. Eg, the 23.3gn load #10 and 12. Almost 40fps difference and POIs are nearly on top of each other.

FWIW, when I load for the 6BR it is not unusual to have a 10/4 es/sd, so I at least know I can reload well enough.

And, yes, the Bergers are next.

CFJ, the Axis is bedded with pillars into a Boyd's Pro Varmint stock. Not the greatest setup but it will consistently shoot better than I can. A lot of the problem is me. I did do a 'break in' with the 88ELD's (about 100 rounds). I didn't record much but about half way through I noticed I had made a big boo boo. I had not checked the barrel channel. The new barrel is larger dia than the shorter Savage heavy varmint barrel and was not full floated. So, after a bit of time with a dowel and sandpaper I got about 1/8" clearance around the barrel now. Yes, it shot better after that

My biggest problem is follow through. Just like in golf, pistol and shotgun, I lift my head to see where the shot will go just as I finish the trigger pull.

Practice.

But then, brother, every shot you fire is just practice.



Try 20 jam.

I have this theory that these 223 rounds are so long and so nose heavy that if you're jumping, then they're not sitting straight in the chamber, they are laying down in the chamber nose down because the bullet is so heavy. So, I definitely think they shoot better if they're pre-aligned by jamming them in the lands.

 

[urbanrifleman]

Those pics are really close to what I get when the bullets are seated.

This morning's results. Center circle is 1". Range is 200yd. Keep in mind that my shooting is not as consistent as I'd like. That bottom target shows the result when I lift my head instead of holding still in the follow through.

Thanks Evan. I liked your .222/,22PPC experiment. I will pick a load and then do a seating test.
View attachment 1711624

I still have trouble with ES/SD on these cases. It has always escaped me how the POI is sometimes contradictory to the vel. Eg, the 23.3gn load #10 and 12. Almost 40fps difference and POIs are nearly on top of each other.

FWIW, when I load for the 6BR it is not unusual to have a 10/4 es/sd, so I at least know I can reload well enough.

And, yes, the Bergers are next.

CFJ, the Axis is bedded with pillars into a Boyd's Pro Varmint stock. Not the greatest setup but it will consistently shoot better than I can. A lot of the problem is me. I did do a 'break in' with the 88ELD's (about 100 rounds). I didn't record much but about half way through I noticed I had made a big boo boo. I had not checked the barrel channel. The new barrel is larger dia than the shorter Savage heavy varmint barrel and was not full floated. So, after a bit of time with a dowel and sandpaper I got about 1/8" clearance around the barrel now. Yes, it shot better after that

My biggest problem is follow through. Just like in golf, pistol and shotgun, I lift my head to see where the shot will go just as I finish the trigger pull.

I think I remember us talking about why you were buying the barrel from me. You wanted to have some inexpensive way to do a lot of practice. I think it's obvious this is one of the best inexpensive long-range rigs you can buy. I've tried to make my 223s with similar chambers not shoot well and they defied me. In general the 223 shoots way way better than anyone wants to give it credit for.

I mean I might be missing something looking at your targets but your point of impact is not changing very much especially on the middle two targets. It looks like it's in tune and those groups are about 3/8 of an inch at 200 yards. It does seem to me that you are missing the wind every now and then and I would suggest that you contact Graham Wind Flags (he is site sponsor and a friend) and get yourself to pinwheels with retractable poles. Put them out and learn how to use them.

 

[Hengehold]

I posted the pictures of the bullets seated with the ISSF169 and the 230 in this thread.

88 ELDM. You can't even see the pressure ring. I shoot them 20 in, or you would need 250 or more.

View attachment 1711575

Here is 90 SMK. That is perfectly acceptable for me. A little past halfway down the neck.

View attachment 1711577

The neck of 223 is only 200 thou or so. You don't have a lot to play with. If you seat to "bullet diameter" you are in the donut.

I submit that the Dashers with the tiny little neck and typical freebore doesn't look a whole lot different. And it's set a few records.

Those pics are helpful. Thanks. Wow, the 88gr has a really long bearing surface.

 

[charlie b]

For some reason Hornady likes a long bearing surface on their ELD's. I thought it was long on the 75's but the 88's are at another level. I really want to get them to shoot well, mainly cause they are cheap

Thanks Brad. I kinda felt the same way, but, I won't know if it will do better or not unless I test some alternative loads I can't blame the wind on this one. It was low enough my wind 'flags' (long ribbons) were barely moving. But, the lack of vertical with a wide velocity difference is appealing. I know I have more work to do with my setup and 'bench manners'.

And, yes, this one was for low recoil practice and maybe some F-TR type stuff if I can ever "beat myself". My brain is the problem. Always gets in between the eye and the trigger finger.

 

[Heavy barrel]

Any one experimenting the @233. Horndy 90 grain A tips compared to the ELD bullets,

5 pages & no one has tried the 90 Atip's?
Or does no one want to admit they spent that much on bullets?

 

[Hengehold]

5 pages & no one has tried the 90 Atip's?
Or does no one want to admit they spent that much on bullets?

At twice the cost of the Berger 90s, I can’t imagine a scenario where the A-tips would be worth the extra money for the life of a barrel.
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